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Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:45 am

Mine is OBD2, when I get it in I will report back. Might be awhile though, to many irons in the fire.

I'll try it with stock cams first. Then with a set of Deltas.

Presslab, can you give an updated ron down on your set up again.

Thanks Jeff

Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:13 am

syncrodoka wrote: So the cams are too much for the OBD1 ECU?

Yes it seems that way. Frankenmotor+cams is too much. The ECU can correct for a 20% error in AFR, and if it can't do it in that window it goes back to the default map and I guess assumes the O2 sensor is dead. I should mention my motor ran perfect before, and the different non-stock parts are "only" the EJ25D shortblock and Delta 220 cams.

jrobewesty wrote: Presslab, can you give an updated ron down on your set up again.

I posted this a few posts up:
presslab wrote: JDM EJ25D shortblock (& 1.5mm headgaskets), EJ22E heads, Delta 220 cams.
presslab wrote: '92 Legacy "F9" ECU

I think I can fix the ECU maps, although this won't be easy for everyone of course. I will make my remapped ROM image freely available for anyone who wants to have a go at it. This is the daughterboard I am building for this ECU: http://www.alcyone.org.uk/ssm/ecumod.html. The daughterboard in the WRX ECU is a different kind, but serves the same purpose.

Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:55 pm

Here's my part number dump, no guarantee on accuracy...

800406140 oil separator bolt (qty 5)
800406150 oil separator bolt (qty 1)
11831AA210 oil separator cover (steel)

806786040 rear main seal
806733030 front crank seal
10991AA001 oil pump o-ring
11044AA610 MLS head gasket 1.5mm (qty 2)
14035AA290 intake manifold seal (qty 2)
13294AA012 rocker cover gasket (qty 2)
13271AA051 rocker cover seals (qty 6)
806732150 camshaft seal (qty 2)
806946030 cam cap o-ring (qty 2)

13028AA102 timing belt
13068AA051 timing belt hyd tensioner
13069AA037 timing belt tensioner pulley
13085AA080 timing belt toothed pulley
13073AA142 timing belt smooth pulley (qty 2)

15208AA031 oil filter
21111AA007 water pump
21114AA051 water pump gasket
21200AA072 thermostat
11060AA071 thermostat cover (plastic)
21236AA010 thermostat gasket

Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:01 pm

Good progress today. EEPROM adapter installed, works perfect.

I needed to richen the idle mixture a fair amount. Mixture elsewhere was spot on or even a touch rich. I had to bump the idle to 1050 RPM to get it decently smooth, even then it isn't as smooth as before.

Timing is a challenge. Around 2500 RPM and around 20% load the engine will knock with the stock timing. Unfortunately the knock sensor is not setup to work at light load, only from about half load up. (See the max advance map.) Anyway I've had to pull almost 10 deg of timing from that area! At full load across the RPM range I have pretty much the original advance, and it doesn't seem to knock up there. I need to find the IAM and FLKC memory locations in RAM to get some better feedback on what the knock sensor is hearing; it's possible it's already retarded up there by hearing the knocking down low, although FLKC does take into account RPM and load for the knock retard.

So I don't quite understand why I can run the stock timing (and good power!) at full load, yet at part load the stock timing is way too advanced. I need to do some more research, I think it has something to do with the cams and the dynamic compression ratio. For overall power I'm not giving up anything by retarding light load only, but I wonder if fuel economy will suffer.

How does it drive? Smooth and torquey! Not "oh my God" or anything, but a nice bump in power from 2000 RPM on up to redline. 8) I should mention I'm used to driving my other car which has 300 HP.

Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:28 pm

That's some serious work :shock:

Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:19 pm

I've got some more driving/tuning in (oh, wouldn't a dyno be nice!), and it's really starting to shine. At about 2000 RPM it just starts tugging, you feel the torque jump up, and that tugging doesn't let up until redline. I was expecting the power to fall off at high RPM like before, but it doesn't.

It seems there is a separate timing map for idle, as I can't change it using the base map load cells. I want to retard the idle timing to increase the airflow at idle. The idea is that this increased airflow will help to avoid the "reversal" with the larger cams, to smooth out the idle. :idea:

Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:22 pm

Your 88 subaru has 300 HP? :shock:

Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:55 pm

What is your background that you can do this??????? Amazing!!!!

Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:58 pm

Yes I have a JDM EJ20G at 17 PSI in my old Subaru, it goes pretty good. :wink:

I'm an EE by trade. "To achieve the impossible, one must think the absurd" I have absurd thoughts all the time. :P

I now have modified the ECU a bit so when the engine knocks it will flicker the check engine light. This will make it easier to see (rather than hear) where it is knocking.

Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:14 am

That's really cool.

Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:37 am

I found the timing map for idle. It's different than the base map - basically as the load goes up the timing goes up. The base map timing goes down as load goes up.

The reason for this is to provide a sort of self-regulation to the idle. More timing means that there's more power, so the ECU can instantly add more power to the engine when the load increases, without having to work with the slow idle air valve. Load would be things like A/C, alternator, power steering. With this I was able to tune out the engine bog when I kick the A/C on.

I've retarded the timing at idle for my Delta cams and it seems to work! More tweaking tonight. The CEL on knock works great too. :)

Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:46 am

Hey Presslab, have you heard of a guy named Rob who chip's old EG20 ECU's??

They call them "Rob-chipped" or "Rob tuned" ECU's

He lives in WA. But I think he only worked with turbo models.

I had one of his ECU's in my old '93 Turbo legacy with EJ22T; it allowed me to use 550cc injectors (with the NA MAF - larger range), run more boost (no cut), set launch control, etc... very cool. You can run the EG20G ECU with the EJ22T motor with a custom ignition convertor (coil on plug to wasted spark) and a few wires swapped around at the ECU.
That car was a blast :twisted:

anyway - nice work!!

btw - I had delta 'torque' cams in my 22T - it caused a unstable/lopey idle. But it did hold out better on the top end with no drop in hp to redline (dyno proven). I wouldn't do it again though....

Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:22 pm

Farfrumwork wrote: Hey Presslab, have you heard of a guy named Rob who chip's old EG20 ECU's??

Yes! That was an attractive option. I elected to figure it out myself, standing on the shoulders of giants too of course! I have a thread over on USMB. I also have 550cc yellows, NA MAF (stock on EJ20G), TD05, yadda yadda. Enough off-topic though. 8)

Farfrumwork wrote: btw - I had delta 'torque' cams in my 22T - it caused a unstable/lopey idle. But it did hold out better on the top end with no drop in hp to redline (dyno proven). I wouldn't do it again though....

Good data, thanks! I assume the EJ22T is flat tappet cam just like my EJ22E? Do you remember if you had the "220" grind? I think I'm pretty close to getting a smooth idle back. Did you feel there were any other detractors with the cams?

Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:35 pm

Cool!

Yes, I had the '220 grind'. I installed them along with some P&P'd stock headers with high-flow cross, so it's hard to say what caused what, but... post header/cams it lost some off-boost response, and consequently the torque ramp when boost hit was more pronounced.

As I said, the cams did hold out more power up top - from 5500+rpms (I gained ~3mph in 1/4 mi trap speed) which also allowed me to hold gears out to the new 7200rpm rev limiter if I chose to (sounded so bad ass >7000rpms). This was great for my little rocket sedan, but wouldn't be so great with the van.

The lopey idle was helped quite a bit with a 950rpm idle (which I did with the 'rob chip')

I look forward to building my own frankenmotor. I'll probably use a 255 block for slightly lower compression, even though it'll cost me more most likely. I just want more torque here at altitude in the mountains - the 2.2 is worlds apart from the 1.9wbx but it would be near perfect with another 30-40ftlbs in the meat of the power band

Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:59 pm

I think the delta torque cams (220's) will give a lopey idle in the ej22 even when completely stock. A few years ago I emailed a shop in Colorado that was doing EJ22 vanagon swaps with the Delta torque grind cams (not RMW). I asked about the cams, the idle and the response from customers. He said there is a lope with the cams, even on a completely stock engine and about 50% of his customers didn't mind the lope for the increase torque and power they provided. I think the EJ255 block and 2.2 heads sounds like the perfect combo that would result in that extra torque but not require any remapping of the ECU.

What happens to the timing when you use thicker head gaskets? Do the 1.5mm hg's affect cam timing a lot?

Paul

Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:28 am

I finally fired mine up. I cranked it over to build oil pressure then added all of the bits and once it built fuel pressure she fired right up(gas tank was just completely drained and gone through). I didn't have the exhaust hooked up yet so it was just a test of firing then shut right down.
Unfortunately i need to finish up the exhaust, repack the CVs, attach the driveshaft, flush the coolant, adjust the brakes, bleed the brakes and clutch and break in the motor for my trip to OR and WA on friday. Little snug on the timeline huh? #-o

Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:31 am

Presslab your build has been very impressive so far.
I have been throwing some hours into building mine and various upgrades/maintenance but i have been checking back for your updates.
Thanks

Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:46 am

Franklinstower wrote: What happens to the timing when you use thicker head gaskets? Do the 1.5mm hg's affect cam timing a lot?

Paul

The EJ22E and the EJ25D head gaskets are both around 1.5mm, so no difference there. And as far as I know all the EJ blocks have a deck height of 201mm, so no difference there either. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

syncrodoka wrote: I finally fired mine up.

Awesome!! Nothing like a tight schedule to motivate you! :) I know you're setting things up a bit different than me, what is your estimated compression ratio?

I wanna see some pics of that 911 muffler on there. :wink:

Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:07 am

Sorry if this has been asked in this thread already but does this combo end up non-interference like the 2.2?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:38 am

BlackDogVan wrote: Sorry if this has been asked in this thread already but does this combo end up non-interference like the 2.2?

I've never been able to find a conclusive answer to this, but if I had to guess I would say the motor would be intereference due to the EJ25D pistons, as stock the EJ25D is intereference. The higher compression, and in my case the increased cam lift, would make it even more likely interference.