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Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:06 pm

Proof of concept from the post above.
The black timing belt housing is from a stock non-turbo 90 legacy not the '93 legacy turbo model that the water pump was designed for so it is a direct bolt up fit.

The water outlet elbow needs to come from something other than a standard N/A ej22. I pulled this one frome a SVX.

I don't know if or how it will work with different conversion mount systems but it looks like I can make it work with mine.

The advantage of doing something like this is like the post above shows you lose no ground clearance or have to make alterations to the skid plate but you gain the second nipple to route the cooling system like some recommend for cold weather cars to keep the cooling system and heat output working correctly.

Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:59 am

I think the extra nipple needs to dump hot coolant on the other side of the thermostat to keep it opened.

Jeff

Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:53 pm

syncrodoka wrote: Proof of concept from the post above.
The black timing belt housing is from a stock non-turbo 90 legacy not the '93 legacy turbo model that the water pump was designed for so it is a direct bolt up fit.

Just thought I'd share, there is definitely more than one different early timing belt cover out there.

My Frankenstein engine is a 2005 Outback EJ25 (EJ254 from memory) with gen1 EJ22 heads.
I had to fit a new timing belt cover so I raided one off the shelf at the local subi joint.
It was dated late 93 but needed to be trimmed as it did not clear the water pump, designed for the different water pump with the vertical outlet.
I suspect it was from an early WRX or RS Liberty EJ20.

Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:32 pm

I said that I found info online about the ej22, ej22t and ej25 center cover being the same they do however have different part numbers. It worked out for the mod that I wanted to do.
The EJ20 engine is different and I wouldn't just assume that they are a direct fit as you have found out. The ej20 wasn't available in the US so I have no direct experience with them except for when a JDM engine vendor tried to sell me one hoping that I wouldn't verify the engine code but I did.

Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:45 am

Very cool to see all the progress made with the mapping especially! I would definitely like to get into that arena eventually.

Great information on the water pump as well. I love the interchangability of Subarus!

I finally made it through smog and am ready to build my Frankenmotor. Need to cc the combustion chambers right now and calculate the correct head gasket size. I want Cometic but I am rushed for time so I may have to get OEM mls and modify them myself, unfortunately. Cometic claims 4 day wait at this point... and I am trying to leave for a road trip next friday, would be pushing it. I can go to the dealer and get the oems today probably.

I have the brand new factory sti block, high volume oil pump, rebuilt 2.2 heads, new head bolts, and a 2.2 to scavenge everything else off of.

I am hoping for a significant increase in torque. I was quite spoiled by having an SVX and the 2.2 is painful to endure at times especially with my high gearing.

Thanks for posting your mileage, that is excellent information!

Neil

*edit* I measured the head volume at 44cc and the short block is a factory brand new, untouched Subaru EJ257, (part number 10103ab4409l) I have been trying to figure out the various calculators online all day to decide which head gasket thickness to order.. I am thinking 9.5:1 would be a great reliable compression ratio. Can anyone tell me what thickness gaskets I need or how to figure it out? I can not figure out all the variable they are asking me for...

I will be using stock ej22 cams.

Here is one calculator i found but can not figure out how to make it work...

http://www.mediafire.com/download/m3z8dxx6t3xr8b6/EngineCalculator.xls
Thanks Neil

Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:25 pm

The are several measurements from the engine that you need to get before you can calculate the CR.
You need to find the shortblock cylinder bore and stroke which can be found online fairly easily. Head CC is also fairly easy to get.
The harder part is that you need the deck height measurement and the piston top design needs to be accounted for if it is pop top or dished. The distance from the wrist pin to the piston top easily can change the CR. These values can definitely change depending on NA/turbo engines or year ranges that the manufacturer played with deck height/head CC for a desired effects.

There are online calculators that you can use once you get the values and formulas that you can use to get the correct HG thickness.

I wouldn't expect the stock HG to magically yield the correct CR that you are looking for. Getting the correct custom thickness HG would be the best bet.

Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:49 pm

This is the group that goes to the Syncrofest camping festival? When are they held and where?

Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:54 pm

^^^^ That is why i used the TWE compression calculator. it has all the suby data on the spreadsheet and you can create almost any combination. I ended up using the .056" hybrid gasket to yield a 10.6:1 CR and a suitable Quench area. Going too thick on the gasket can screw up the quench volume. -simplified - when it gets to big you have poor combustion.

Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:57 pm

Got a link that you can provide to benefit other builders?
I am unaware of it.

Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:59 pm

SyncroNelly wrote: This is the group that goes to the Syncrofest camping festival? When are they held and where?
Many people go to Synrofest, it is in the spring though.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=542019&highlight=syncrofest

Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:13 pm

Ok, great that calculator is easy!

Here it is:

www.submariner.org/thepno95/TWE%20compression%20calculator.xls

I just chose 2.5l sti motor (#7) from the list, then changed the head combustion chamber volume to what mine is (44cc) and then put that number in the working model on the left. Then I could alter Head Gasket thickness until I came up with 9.5:1 compression. I ended up with .6mm (024in.).

I have no idea if that is a practical/actual head gasket thickness? Oem?

Since this is my first time it sure would be nice if someone could double check that for me if you would.

Neil

Ok I double checked and it looks like a .027 is an available size and will net just under 9.5:1 compression ratio

Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:52 am

The Frank went in Yesterday:

98 EJ25 Block:

92 EJ22 Heads:

A few Busch's:

And its in!

I only managed a quick 2 mile drive and the power increase over my stock ej22 was quite impressive. I still have to add the re-programmed Eproms, finish the coolant bleeding, get some 89 octane in it and then I will report the results.

The build:
98 EJ25 Block - It should be a phase 1 engine, but my block appears to be a phase 2 due to the tell tale single ridge on the block next to the #1 Cylinder and the 8 tranny mounting holes instead of 4 that were on the phase 1 blocks. Stock dished peeping tom pistons with new rings.
92 EJ22 heads - rebuilt and surfaced - .003" (i think) taking off the heads. I radius'd all the 90 degree edges at the combustion chamber/quench area to help eliminate hot spots and a source of possible pre-ignition. I am also running one step colder NGK V-groove plugs.
Delta 220 reground ej22 flat tappet style cams.
Cometic .056" hybrid Head Gasket.
92 EJ22 ECU - Daughter board and remapped Eproms (going in later this week)

Compression calculated at 10.6:1 with a .39" quench area.

Long term reports to follow, but I am already impressed with the smoothness and increased power.

Paul

Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:59 am

Nice work!

Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:03 am

Bravo Paul!!

congratulations!!!

Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:44 am

Nice job! There is one of these in my future, I think.

Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:13 pm

I am looking into this engine setup with my next project which will be a weekender/Carat with a North American High Top conversion with an automatic transmission, 2" lift with 16" wheels.

I plan on going off road and want the torque for climbing and driving the mountain roads here in Utah

I love the talk about torque but how does this setup do on the highway at cruising speed? I do not want to feel like I am topped out cruising on the highway.

Has anyone had any issues yet with their setup? I am also looking for reliability.

Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:39 pm

Quote: I do not want to feel like I am topped out cruising on the highway.

The Frankenmotor with the automatic transmission will have you turning nearly 4,000rpm at 70mph, depending on your tire size. You can look at the R&P upgrade thread to see what rpm that will give you at 70mph.

I have three years and 25,000 miles on my engine. Very happy!

Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:42 pm

smurfpike wrote:
Has anyone had any issues yet with their setup? I am also looking for reliability.

I see you are interested in the Frankenmotor. Personally, I see the overall advantage being very low compared to later model higher hp 2.5 motors.

THese are typically built for people in CA that want to eek by as 90-94 Subarus.

As far as disadvantages go, opinions run the gamut. There have been cases of Seized engines, overheating, head gaskets and my personal unfavorite: FOULED RINGS!

That one happened to me, running a BRAND NEW EJ257 block with EJ22 components. Other people have had the issue as well and honestly, no one is positive why it occurs.

It is not a frankenmotor issue it is an EJ25 issue, I believe.

I can not recall anyone with an EJ22 (1st or 2nd phase) having the issue.

So, I suggest you do a lot of reading on the topic, and especially on header design. Personally I see ZERO advantage to running a frank with an oversized header. I believe they kill power big time, which is why I custom built a small diameter header for mine.

BTW I re-ringed mine and sold it and am fitting an EJ22, so my Frank days are over.

Neil2 8)

Thu Oct 01, 2015 6:27 pm

smurfpike wrote: I am looking into this engine setup with my next project which will be a weekender/Carat with a North American High Top conversion with an automatic transmission, 2" lift with 16" wheels.

I plan on going off road and want the torque for climbing and driving the mountain roads here in Utah

I love the talk about torque but how does this setup do on the highway at cruising speed? I do not want to feel like I am topped out cruising on the highway.

Has anyone had any issues yet with their setup? I am also looking for reliability.

Jason, I looked into a Frankenmotor when I installed my last EJ22. They have great torque. Talking to Chris at Metric, he advised against it for reliability reasons. There are many that have no issues at all with there frank motor. But a non interference EJ22 is pretty hard to beat for a bullet proof engine with millions of miles to prove it. An EJ22 does not have as much umphh, but with oil and coolant, it will keep going and going. My last EJ22 was in for 14 years with no issues till a failed injector took out the rings on a cylinder. It still ran fine just blew the blues like crazy! I probably could have just re-ringed it and been fine.

But a fresh rebuild sure was pretty to see being put in!

Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:39 pm

I had ej22 subaru in my Syncro westy. Then the engine went. So replaced it with Franken Motor.

I had three choices, rebuild ej22, go with ej25 or go with franken motor.

I went with franken motor. The build cost was only $500-$700 more and didn't have to change my current wiring harness. This builder who builds for many shops told me it would be just as reliable and he has built many of them. The ej25 was same price as franken motor to build but I had to re-do my wiring harness. And sometimes lot of gremlins. He advised me to go with Franken motor and many of his customers were very happy with franken motor.

My thoughts since I had both. ej22 lacks power and I live in LA area every time I had to go up the Cajon Pass I had to down shift to 2nd gear sometimes and it was painful. It was horrible going the same speed as Big Rigs or slower. Not fun being in second to third gear.

Since installing the rebuilt frankenmotor. WoW is all I can say. I can cruise third gear 50 mph on the same Cajon pass. The torque is way better. Its like going form wbx to ej22. Franken motor is going from wbx to ej22.

Reliability all depends on who builds it and how you take care of it. The builder told me there are some secrets he learned and that was shop secret. I've had it for 1year now and still runs like new. I would not go back to ej22 IMO. You have to make sure you get it built from a reputable and builder that had built many of them.

I got it built by S&S performance from Alpine Ca. I would recommend them.

picture of his shop