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Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:00 am

Well first I wanted to identify what engine I have, as obviously it is not a 1961. Then I thought of trying to change it to look more like a 1961 engine. But at this point I understand it's pretty much mission impossible :(

Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:18 am

It's not impossible just requires a lot of parts swapping and cash-ola.

This thread is truly international- I like it.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:22 am

Here's the original stale-air motor in my '62. It should be very similar to the 1961 motor.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:47 pm

beetleman217 wrote: Well first I wanted to identify what engine I have, as obviously it is not a 1961. Then I thought of trying to change it to look more like a 1961 engine. But at this point I understand it's pretty much mission impossible :(

It's not going to be that hard. In fact, you could probably get all the parts you need from this one guy for less than $100.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1142229

The tin that connects the generator to the shroud should be dished so get that part too.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:12 pm

keep in mind, that dished generator tin is for the smaller 90mm diameter 6V generator.

Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:49 am

Andy, here is a pic of my engine number. Sorry it took long - I only see daylight at home on weekends...

I also took your idea and moved the regulator to the top of the generator by tapping a second hole:

The hose going from the air cleaner to the firewall is just for show, as while there's a hole in the firewall, the heat exchanger is a late model...

Also, I'm frustrated as I can't find a flap and weight for my air cleaner anywhere.

Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:10 am

Thanks for the picture. I was wondering if the stamping would compare to that D147 block I'd posted previously, and I'd say it it does - those would have been Mexican production - I don't know where all the components they were using came from but I'd always wondered about that D1 then the space and the 47xxxx on that one, but yours is much the same - D1, space, then the number and not all the numbers stamped straight. And the numbers look much the same. Since that photo was on the last page, here's a side-by-side, that other photo and yours cropped to match .

The VW1200 became an export-to-Europe model by the early 80s and I'm pretty sure that's where this block came from originally.

I wonder if it's got Mexican cylinder heads on it. I have a pair of Mexi 1200 heads. Mostly out of curiousity, have you noticed "Mexico" cast into the heads or on the side of the engine block?

Looks pretty good on the voltage regulator. I see you elected to mount it with the big terminals facing the rear-of-car. I've seen it done either way. On mine I carefully bent mine up with some duckbill pliers so I could mount it the other way around. Originally I had it with an old-style regulator and just kept with that layout when I changed to the new.

I'd probably clean the shroud where those holes are, and then cover those holes with some quality electrical tape. And maybe find some kind of a plug or cap for that hole in the rear breast plate where the late model preheat hose went.

Too bad you're not having any luck with the air cleaner flap. You'll probably have to get an entire air cleaner - and that wouldn't be a bad thing either - that would give you some place to connect that crankase breather up to. But I imagine even a whole air cleaner is going to be hard to find where you're at.

-Andy

Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:33 am

I did not see any evidence of "Mexico" on any part. But what you are saying makes sense as my brother's 1979 beetle is completely Mexican.

I chose to mount the regulator like that because there was no clearance for the big terminals. Didn't even cross my mind to bend them... I just tried to be careful with them being powered. Didn't want to risk them rubbing the fan shroud. Yeah, I was thinking about cosmetically improving the fan shroud... Electrical tape sounds good but I wonder if it'll hold.

No chance to find an air cleaner here - I didn't even bother to look - I'm searching online.

Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:35 am

beetleman217 wrote:

Have someone weld up the holes in the shroud.

Get hose clamps on the paper covered tubes running from shroud to the rear tin. If one of those pops off you can fry a head or worse.
Supposed to be rubber seals around the base of the tubes to seal to the tin better.

The rear tin is missing some of the screws in the front of it. Those front screws not only hold down the rear tin, BUT hold on the rear cylinder deflectors underneath. You NEED those to properly cool the rear of the cylinders, and engine.

A couple of soup can lids with a bolt and nut through the center will close off the later air cleaner hole in the rear tin.

If you can see any place under the VW through the engine seals and tin, you are sucking hot air from underneath the VW back into the engine compartment. If you want the engine to last as long and well as possible, the cooling air going into the engine should not be preheated by the engine itself.

Would be good to check which size of crank pulley you have, and when you pull the engine measure the the cooling fan. Biggest single port fan was 29mm measured between the discs that make up the fan. Earlier SP fans got smaller and smaller. Dual port started with 33, then 34, and lastly 35 mm. Does not hurt to upgrade to larger fan.

Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:39 am

I figured you were looking online in your region. I see you're on theSamba Classifieds... plenty to choose from there but nothing near to you. Have you tried the Vzi classifieds? They are not nearly as easy to search though, but they are more England/Europe oriented.

http://www.volkszone.com/VZi/forumdisplay.php?f=42

Some search tips: you might use some different combinations of terms "Oil Bath", "Air cleaner", "Air Filter" And "1200", "1200cc", "40HP" (although 40HP is mostly a North American designation for that engine)

I just noticed E&B mentioning the pulley - that reminds me that was yet another 1961 model year change - halfway through the year the diameter got smaller. In a hot climate I'd go with the larger one if I could. Don't know what your mixup engine has on it, but these were the 1961 pullies:

Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:38 pm

motor in my old 61. 12v and converted to fresh air

Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:09 am

Eric&Barb wrote:
Have someone weld up the holes in the shroud.

Get hose clamps on the paper covered tubes running from shroud to the rear tin. If one of those pops off you can fry a head or worse.
Supposed to be rubber seals around the base of the tubes to seal to the tin better.

The rear tin is missing some of the screws in the front of it. Those front screws not only hold down the rear tin, BUT hold on the rear cylinder deflectors underneath. You NEED those to properly cool the rear of the cylinders, and engine.

A couple of soup can lids with a bolt and nut through the center will close off the later air cleaner hole in the rear tin.

If you can see any place under the VW through the engine seals and tin, you are sucking hot air from underneath the VW back into the engine compartment. If you want the engine to last as long and well as possible, the cooling air going into the engine should not be preheated by the engine itself.

Would be good to check which size of crank pulley you have, and when you pull the engine measure the the cooling fan. Biggest single port fan was 29mm measured between the discs that make up the fan. Earlier SP fans got smaller and smaller. Dual port started with 33, then 34, and lastly 35 mm. Does not hurt to upgrade to larger fan.

Eric&Barb, I feel like a scolded boy in school LOL... Yeah I know my engine is a nasty piece if s#%t. It has only been cared for to keep running by POs, nothing cosmetical or correct. I am totally aware of this and plan to restore it one day. For this reason I'm currently studying the beetle mechanics in hopes of becoming an amateur grease monkey.

Regarding your comment on the paper tubes - I thought those tubes carried fresh air to the heater channels (through the heat exchangers), and didn't actively cool the engine. The engine is cooled by most of the air in the shroud, and not by those tubes - isn't that correct?

Andy, thank you for the tips on searching. I am not searching in my area - the world has become a global village and I've ordered parts from every continent - mostly of course from the fabulous US of A. It's just a matter of finding a part and a seller willing to ship it abroad for a sane total (and then dealing with customs and the DMV when it arrives...). I can tell you that owning a classic car in my country is a much bigger challenge than in yours.

Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:59 am

beetleman217 wrote:
Eric&Barb, I feel like a scolded boy in school LOL... Yeah I know my engine is a nasty piece if s#%t. It has only been cared for to keep running by POs, nothing cosmetical or correct. I am totally aware of this and plan to restore it one day. For this reason I'm currently studying the beetle mechanics in hopes of becoming an amateur grease monkey.

Even if it is a POS looking engine, it runs!! While it is very nice to have a perfectly era correct engine in every way, having a running engine is more important.

Cooling these air cooled engines goes along way to keeping them well and for a long time. Especially in a hot climate like yours. So having all sorts of leaks and letting hot air that already has gone through the engine back into the engine compartment is not going to help.

Several times when fueling up, and at rest stops, on our cross country trips in our 1960 bus we have met folks who owned ACVWs in the past, and been told how "Brave" we were to drive such a unreliable automobile, and how they went through engine after engine!!
Doing preventive maintenance, keeping down the RPMs for cruising, having oil temp & pressure gauges, building the engine and cooling system properly, all help to keep the VW on the road. Last engine got 80,000 miles and only pulled it out due to too much end play, now have over 110,000 miles on present 1641 SP with CW crank engine.

beetleman217 wrote:
Regarding your comment on the paper tubes - I thought those tubes carried fresh air to the heater channels (through the heat exchangers), and didn't actively cool the engine. The engine is cooled by most of the air in the shroud, and not by those tubes - isn't that correct?

Incorrect. Here is a must read:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=211521&highlight=exhaust+vent

Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:04 am

I am trying to locate a correct shroud for my 1961 (stale air). Which of the following two is it?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:55 am

Neither, the top looks like a fresh air shroud with the fresh air outlets welded up or its from a type 181 "Thing". The bottom is a 36 h.p. shroud. If you look closely at the bottom shroud you will notice that it does not have the recess at the top center for the larger 40 h.p air cleaner. also it does not have the holes where the plastic spark plug wire clips go in. (the 36 h.p. had a metal loom for the wires.)

Here is an image of a stale air 40h.p. shroud that I pulled from the gallery:

Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:34 am

beetleman217 wrote: Andy, here is a pic of my engine number. Sorry it took long - I only see daylight at home on weekends...

You have to get one of these:

You can find them in dollar stores. I use mine to go to the garage at night, to read in bed, to check the water level in my furnace, etc. etc. etc.

Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:03 am

Shadd wrote: Neither, the top looks like a fresh air shroud with the fresh air outlets welded up or its from a type 181 "Thing". The bottom is a 36 h.p. shroud. If you look closely at the bottom shroud you will notice that it does not have the recess at the top center for the larger 40 h.p air cleaner. also it does not have the holes where the plastic spark plug wire clips go in. (the 36 h.p. had a metal loom for the wires.)

Ok, I found a bunch of these in the classifieds that match your description (recess for air cleaner and holes for clips), but they are always referred to as 36 hp shrouds. I know 1961 was the first year for the 40 hp, but did it retain the 36 hp shroud? Or was the 1961 shroud different?

Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:08 am

I don't know if they are exactly the same as 40hp shrouds (I suspect they are) but 1960 36hp shrouds have the indent for the air cleaner and the spot for the spark plug wire holders. No wire tube.

Engine from 1960 manual

Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:23 pm

Ok, it may be crazy, but I decided to try to return my engine to stale air for the sake of originality. While I won't be changing the engine itself, I want to dress it up in its original clothes.

So I figured I need the following:
- Stale shroud
- Stale heat exchangers and their bottom plates

What I need help is with the following:
- Do I also need tin cylinder covers? Or will the stale shroud fit later ones?
- The engine has a 12v flywheel and sun clutch. This shouldn't be an issue, right?

Thanks

Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:19 pm

The stale air cylinder shrouds aren't set up with captive nuts for the little covers that go over the preheat pipes - and the rear engine cover "breast" plate is not set up for them either. If you want it to look correct for a stale air I'd probably get the stale shrouds or get yours sealed up there. And you will need that rear solid rear breast plate that has no holes in it. And the front engine cover plate, if you intend to use the stale air preheat hose to the carb, you'll either have to cut a hole in yours or get a stale air version.

I posted this image earlier but I'll put it up again just as reference for the various names of parts:

re: bottom plates - used stale air heat exchangers are often sold "complete" with the lower tin heating channels, which are shaped differently than fresh air "sleds". However, the screw holes are in similar locations between the two, so they both line up with the cylinder cover shrouds.

Another thing to consider is that if you go with stale air heat exchangers, you will also need a stale air muffler, the flanges are in different locations than fresh air and use a 32mm sealing ring instead of the 35mm fresh air and tailpipe ring.

Yours being a late model 1200 and 12V, that shouldn't be a problem with going to stale air.

There was actually a pretty long list of parts added or changed when the fresh air system was introduced. Those insulator shields and their inserts around the preheat pipes, the ducts and clamps for the fresh air hoses, all of the tin changed (except the throttle ring, which stayed around until August 1964)