TheSamba.com :: View topic - Heat in a VW

Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:06 pm

I have been thinking about this lately as colder temperatures are upon us. The question evokes all kinds of opinions from" VW's don't have heat" to "My VW will cook you out in the dead of winter." I thought of some of the variables that might affect your opinion.
1) Obviously where you live has a lot to do with your opinion. Having survived 60+ cold Canadian winters, my definition of adequate heat might be different than some others. 2) What year VW you drive and its overall condition. I was recently driving my stock 1960 bug with perfect heater channels, freshly installed NOS heater boxes and thermostat working and even at that, there is heat but not really adequate for a Canadian winter. My 1970, on the other hand produces a lot more heat and that is with aftermarket heater boxes that are not as good as factory boxes were. My 1967, which I no longer own, had heat that was quite adequate for temperatures well below 0 F.
3) Improvements in heater box construction - a) Looking at an old 36 hp box, it is literally just a pipe running through some sheet metal with an exposed outside pipe. b) 40 hp stale air box - a little larger oval outlet with enclosed pipe c) 40 hp fresh air box -getting better d) heater box with fins that dramatically improved heater function on the fresh air heating systems. Factory boxes were definitely better than aftermarket are. There were many other changes that the VW engineers made to improve the system over the years.
Just some observations then about VW air cooled heating systems. These 2 pics show a 36 hp box and a later finned box. Little wonder that the finned box transferred heat much more efficiently than the early style.

Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:34 pm

I am in my mid-40's and have owned several Bugs, all of which had functioning heaters, and lived in many different climates. On short drives I will admit the heaters leave a lot to be desired but when traveling 20 minutes or longer, I have never felt like I didn't have enough heat. As a child my father had several Bugs as well and we lived in New England. Again, I don't recall being cold in the winters while riding in a Bug. I guess I have been lucky.

I look at it this way, the Bug was born in Germany. I assume the Germans wnated to be arm while traveling. Seems like they would have made huge improvements if the systems weren't working. My 45 yr old Bug still has a wonderful working heater and defroster.

Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:10 pm

My first bug was a '60 bought in '74 that had been riddin' hard, had far too many engine changes by hackers ... and needless to say, the heater boxes were non-funtioning :shock:
Did have an awesome gas fired heater up front though, and it worked without the engine running. slept in that car a few times :wink:

then in the 62 ... while driving through a blizzard in NH, the candles came through well ... hot waxed to the dash :lol:

explain that first pic will you please?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:17 pm

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=491112

join in here

Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:25 pm

eluu wrote: My first bug was a '60 bought in '74 that had been riddin' hard, had far too many engine changes by hackers ... and needless to say, the heater boxes were non-funtioning :shock:
Did have an awesome gas fired heater up front though, and it worked without the engine running. slept in that car a few times :wink:

then in the 62 ... while driving through a blizzard in NH, the candles came through well ... hot waxed to the dash :lol:

explain that first pic will you please?

Those gas heaters generated major heat. Here are a couple more pics of an old 36 hp box. I tried to show how simple they are. There are no fins -just a pipe in a box.

Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:42 pm

Maddog209 wrote: I am in my mid-40's and have owned several Bugs, all of which had functioning heaters, and lived in many different climates. On short drives I will admit the heaters leave a lot to be desired but when traveling 20 minutes or longer, I have never felt like I didn't have enough heat. As a child my father had several Bugs as well and we lived in New England. Again, I don't recall being cold in the winters while riding in a Bug. I guess I have been lucky.

I look at it this way, the Bug was born in Germany. I assume the Germans wnated to be arm while traveling. Seems like they would have made huge improvements if the systems weren't working. My 45 yr old Bug still has a wonderful working heater and defroster.
Your 1966 bug would be very similar to my '67. I agree. They had great heat and defrost that worked in very cold weather.
I personally think a major turning point was Dec. 1962 with the introduction of fresh air heating. I have vivid memories of riding in a new 1957 blue bug that my uncle bought in 1957. You needed your mitts on when you rode in that car. Then a 1961 - similar to the 57. Then came a new 1964 in which I rode many miles. The heat was a lot better than that '57 36 hp. BTW 1966 is one of my favorite years for a VW bug.

Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:23 am

wayne1230cars wrote: Maddog209 wrote: I am in my mid-40's and have owned several Bugs, all of which had functioning heaters, and lived in many different climates. On short drives I will admit the heaters leave a lot to be desired but when traveling 20 minutes or longer, I have never felt like I didn't have enough heat. As a child my father had several Bugs as well and we lived in New England. Again, I don't recall being cold in the winters while riding in a Bug. I guess I have been lucky.

I look at it this way, the Bug was born in Germany. I assume the Germans wnated to be arm while traveling. Seems like they would have made huge improvements if the systems weren't working. My 45 yr old Bug still has a wonderful working heater and defroster.
Your 1966 bug would be very similar to my '67. I agree. They had great heat and defrost that worked in very cold weather.
I personally think a major turning point was Dec. 1962 with the introduction of fresh air heating. I have vivid memories of riding in a new 1957 blue bug that my uncle bought in 1957. You needed your mitts on when you rode in that car. Then a 1961 - similar to the 57. Then came a new 1964 in which I rode many miles. The heat was a lot better than that '57 36 hp. BTW 1966 is one of my favorite years for a VW bug.

Thanks! Sounds like you have a lot of experience with the earlier models. I'm glad I have a 66.

Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:06 am

I have a '67 that I did a body-off restoration on. I started with having a new floor welded in. I didn't think about measuring where the holes needed to be for meeting the threaded nuts in the body so they didn't match up once I was ready to put the body back on. I cut larger holes and eventually was able to bolt the body back on. But the holes were big enought that they let all the heat escape before reaching the front of the car. I welded sheetmetal panels over the holes to keep ice and snow from splashing up into the car but that didn't improve the heat at all.

Then I put in the bilge pump style of boosters under the back seat. Everything else that a brand new 1973 DP 1600 engine has for heat I put into the '67 car. So all the heat comes from the back seat. If it's below zero outside it takes 20 minutes for the car to feel truly warm.

The only thing left for me would be to connect a gas heater to the driver side defroster. My dad moonlighted as a mechanic in a VW garage when he was stationed in Germany so he knows a lot about bugs. He's working on turning an old 6 volt gas heater into 12 volts.

I only need to drive 15 minute to get to work so I'm not that enthused about igniting gasoline with a spark plug to be able to have immediate defrost heat. I'd rather wear my coat, wool hat and gloves for the 15 minute drive.

Last winter I was taking a class at the college an hour's drive on the interstate. Dealing with semis passing me and kicking up snow the entire drive kept me from noticing the cold inside the bug.

I'd hoped to buy a new Ford F250 by now (0% interest!!!) but both of my daughters decided to go to a private college so there's no money for a pickup and I'm stuck driving the old bug for at least three more winters.

crvc

Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:28 am

Well heat on these cars are exclent.... warm up quite fast...actuly ..... the only thing that will give u good heat well great heat is the factory heater boxes the after market are junk....but i plan to change that.... i am working on casting the orginal internals and working on a externel heater box that wont rust.... but as of right now the only way ur going to get good heat is if u throw the danks trash out and bolt on a set of oem boxes.....

Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:29 am

I have been driving my 36hp Bug in 30F weather lately, and it is warm and toasty. Don't forget when you are looking at the stale air heat exchanger boxes, that the air is coming from the cylinder heads where it picks up most of the heat so they don't need much from the exhaust pipe, whereas the fresh air exchangers get their air supply straight from the fan. I agree that they got better with later models, but I've owned and driven many different air cooled VWs and my 57 Bug compares well with all of them for heat in the winter here in the Northwest.

Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:11 am

With most of the 36 horse stuff I had, there were 2 ways to tell if the heat was on.

One, there was the smell of burning oil inside the car and an oil slick at the lower corners of the windshield.

Two, your left tennis shoe was on fire, while your right foot had frost bite.

But when I advanced to the fresh air heaters of the 40 horse stuff, we discovered the bilge pump blowers could be adapted under the back seat!

That gave you plenty of heat! I had a 63 with 2 of those and you couldn't run them both at the same time because it just got way too hot in the car.

Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:29 am

I have a stock Type 113 64 beetle 1200 40hp and it's heat is about the same as my 65 Type 111 standard fresh air 36hp when all vents are open. The part I like with the 65 Standard is the control to shut off heat to the rear, because the added flow goes to the front foot areas and more importantly to the defrosters where I can defrost the windscreen as well as warm my fingers. I would imagine because of that feature the 66 model had enough air/heat flow to add the center defroster.

Don

Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:57 am

Thermostat and flaps are needed for proper heat. The 73 out heats my 68.
For added defrost on the windsheild I have added a peice of plexiglass 4"X 5" near the corner vents. This aids in more hot air going on the windsheild. Works great for me.

Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:02 pm

Mom's Squarebacks both had excellent heat. Never been in a Beetle that would do anything but set the foot next to the heat vent on fire while the rest of me was coated with frost.

Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:11 pm

Helfen wrote: I have a stock Type 113 64 beetle 1200 40hp and it's heat is about the same as my 65 Type 111 standard fresh air 36hp when all vents are open. The part I like with the 65 Standard is the control to shut off heat to the rear, because the added flow goes to the front foot areas and more importantly to the defrosters where I can defrost the windscreen as well as warm my fingers. I would imagine because of that feature the 66 model had enough air/heat flow to add the center defroster.

Don That is a real good point as well that no doubt made a difference in overall comfort of the later models.
Good point too by the doc as far as the odor of the stale air engine. As the engine got older and dirtier this "burning oil" smell would become more and more noticeable. Last winter I did a total rebuild on my 36 hp. All engine tin was blasted and powdercoated. New heater boxes and exhaust and flex tubes were installed. At this point, it is pretty much odor free with the heat on. Probably then, a brand new stale air bug was not too bad for the smell. My wife was talking about her memories of riding in her dad's red 1962 bug in the winter time and how she remembered that disagreable oil smell. It would have been older with pretty high mileage, the car that is, not my wife. :)

Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:15 pm

what about the heater boxes in the FI bugs? Thats what I have in my 75 standard, (converted to carb). Those heater boxes are substantially different than the pre-75 heater boxes. Ive heard people say they were better at putting out heat, but I dont think so. They seem to put out less heat than the older style.

Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:26 pm

wayne1230cars wrote: Helfen wrote: I have a stock Type 113 64 beetle 1200 40hp and it's heat is about the same as my 65 Type 111 standard fresh air 36hp when all vents are open. The part I like with the 65 Standard is the control to shut off heat to the rear, because the added flow goes to the front foot areas and more importantly to the defrosters where I can defrost the windscreen as well as warm my fingers. I would imagine because of that feature the 66 model had enough air/heat flow to add the center defroster.

Don That is a real good point as well that no doubt made a difference in overall comfort of the later models.
Good point too by the doc as far as the odor of the stale air engine. As the engine got older and dirtier this "burning oil" smell would become more and more noticeable. Last winter I did a total rebuild on my 36 hp. All engine tin was blasted and powdercoated. New heater boxes and exhaust and flex tubes were installed. At this point, it is pretty much odor free with the heat on. Probably then, a brand new stale air bug was not too bad for the smell. My wife was talking about her memories of riding in her dad's red 1962 bug in the winter time and how she remembered that disagreable oil smell. It would have been older with pretty high mileage, the car that is, not my wife. :)
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Might want to go the fresh air route on your 36hp that the factory did with ALL engines in 63. As you all know all 1200's 36 & 40 hp are the same width, but 36 hp heads are shorter. The factory uses long studs on the muffler side exhaust ports and a aluminum spacer ( shaped like the port with holes for the long studs) approx. 7/8" to make the 36 hp head the same length as the 40hp. This means you can use not only the fresh air heater, but the 40hp muffler. You will need a 36hp fresh air intake manifold as the heat risers are longer and different tin that you can make. That is a real advantage in heat and clean air opposed to the stale air system.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/516081.jpg
Factory photo;
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q16/threespoke/standardkafer/literature/LIT265brocengine.jpg
Don

Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:39 pm

jzjames wrote: what about the heater boxes in the FI bugs? Thats what I have in my 75 standard, (converted to carb). Those heater boxes are substantially different than the pre-75 heater boxes. Ive heard people say they were better at putting out heat, but I dont think so. They seem to put out less heat than the older style.

VW advertising claimed that the FI heater boxes were more efficient. I drove a 1975 green LaGrande bug from 1980 - 1985 as my daily driver. Heat was really decent and easily handled the cold Canadian winter. I am not sure I would say it was dramatically different or better than my 1974 green love bug that I purchased new. There may be some other variables going on with your 75.

Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:20 pm

Another observation about stale air vs. clean air heating systems would be that with stale air, your car pretty well has to be moving to get heat. With a fresh air system you actually can get "some" heat at idle. Not a lot mind you, but some. Cracking a vent window just a bit also encouraged heat flow.

Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:03 am

I still have stale air in my 62 bug... it's not great but it's not horrible either. I wouldn't want to drive in stop/start traffic in a blizzard though. I do have an assist blower inline on the driver side which helps keep the windshield clearer in such conditions. I did notice a noticable improvement once I put the original style throttle ring thermostat system back in. However I do remember one highway trip I made one night in the late 90s in eastern Montana, it was -25 degrees outside and in the car it was only like 20 above, I had to bundle up pretty tight there! But I don't drive my bugs in those conditions very much anymore though, that's what my 85 Golf is for.

I've been able to let my stale air idle though and still get some heat inside, I did it just yesterday evening. You need to have a thick bump-stop on the throttle ring if you run the thermostat though! A missing or thin bumper cuts off too much air to get much out of the heater.