TheSamba.com :: View topic - Syncro Off-Road Abilities vs. Competition

Fri May 31, 2013 12:25 am

I Hate sand...and F big red..... :D
I hate the airing down ritual.......

Go Syncros...Go HellenicVanagon 0~

Fri May 31, 2013 7:41 am

I love driving in sand! And now Big Red is on my 'to drive' list.

Fri May 31, 2013 8:41 am

comparing a Syncro with front and rear lockers to a Disco, Vittara, Rav, etc, with no lockers .... :roll:

Fri May 31, 2013 8:47 am

The driver of the vehicle makes the biggest difference.

Captain, pilot, driver.......all are decision makers, the vehicle just goes where it is pointed....or not.

Fri May 31, 2013 9:16 am

insyncro wrote: The driver of the vehicle makes the biggest difference.

Captain, pilot, driver.......all are decision makers, the vehicle just goes where it is pointed....or not.

Absolutely!

Please, let me to introduce captain Raftopoulos:

Champion of trial race in Greece, 1993, with SYNCRO

He flies with SYNCROs like this:

(With PORSCHE 350 bhp engine)

Fri May 31, 2013 9:33 am

Thank you :!:

Fri May 31, 2013 9:44 am

.... :roll:

Fri May 31, 2013 9:49 am

insyncro wrote: Thank you :!:

You are welcome!

:D

Fri May 31, 2013 10:14 am

Jon_slider wrote: > He flies with SYNCROs like this:
> (With PORSCHE 350 bhp engine)

great photo, but, not a fair comparison to a Discovery with different traction controls

An unlocked Syncro doing the same terrain as an unlocked Disco, is at an equipment disadvantage.

I have seen a Disco get past an obstacle that involved crossing a hole with one wheel, using no lockers, that a Syncro could not pass unless it locked the rear.

But yes, I agree completely that a Syncro with front and rear lockers will beat a Disco that does not have lockers.

Skill makes a difference when the equipment is the same, but lockers trump non lockers due to equipment advantage, not driver skill, in my opinion.

Another equipment factor that will separate otherwise identical vehicles from each other is tire pressure. I have a seen a syncro at 30psi with front locker get up a hill that a syncro at 30psi with no front locker failed to climb. We then both went to 20 psi, and both vehicles easily climbed the hill, without using a front locker. In that comparison, tire pressure matters more than lockers.

I would agree that tire pressure selection is a driver skill.

You see SYNCRO T3 has some secret weapons!

1)In terms of transmission offroad, (which is the discussion here)

(and (in parentheses because it is off topic)

2)In terms of transmission onroad

3)In terms of suspension and active safety

4)In terms of aerodynamics

5)In terms of passive safety)

So lets consider the 1st which is our subject here.

It seems that you think for LAND ROVER DISCOVERY with three open differentials as a superior vehicle in comparison to SYNCRO T3 with no lockers!

So lets consider their construction, assuming no lockers anywhere:

1)LAND ROVER, JEEP and all vehicles with the same, traditional transmission:

rear open dif., center open dif., front open dif..

2)SYNCRO: (ALL PASSENGER AND COMMERCIAL VEHICLES, including T3, T4, GOLF, PASSAT, JETTA, SHARAN):

rear open dif., center VCT, front open dif..

We see that these two categories should be equal, since they have open differentials all around!

BUT!

Fri May 31, 2013 10:44 am

Lets examine the 1st category vehicles, how they should behave in case of zero traction to one of the two axles:

all the power goes to the axle with the zero traction!

Why? Because this is the way it works, any open differential sends power where it is easier in order to be lazy doing nothing!

So the vehicle stops!

Now what you think will happen with a SYNCRO?
(Anyone of them, its a matter of different system philosophy!).

For ex., a rear engined T3 SYNCRO has to overcome a part with ice, under its

a)front axle:

The vehicle does not stop! It continues as if there is no ice at all!
Why? Because all the necessary power is offered by the rear wheels through gearbox!

b)rear axle:

The vehicle, again, does not stop! All the necessary power comes to the front wheels through VCT!

So the two systems, without lockers, are not equal!

The SYNCRO with VCT, is far superior, because, from its construction, there is always power where it is needed and not there where it is absolutely useless!

The VCT is not an easy to beat idea, it works as a mechanically controlled center differential, and, by no means, it must be considered as an open differential!

And one last point: the power in SYNCRO system is offered stably and continuously to the needed axle, and there are not intermittent time parts with no power at all, as f. ex., with TORSEN/QUATTRO systems, where the power goes in a crazy manner interchangeably from the one to the second axle with very bad results offroad!

Fri May 31, 2013 11:15 am

"Many of us won't give up our Vanagons until we or the van dies," says Carrington, predicting that the list will get smaller over the next 10 years but appreciation for Vanagons will increase. "At the end, there will just be a bunch of old crazy die-hards."

Fri May 31, 2013 11:37 am

From the above mentioned SYNCRO's, (T3, T4, GOLF, PASSAT, JETTA, SHARAN), the only one equipped with HEAVY DUTY VCT, is the T3 because:

1)it is included in the protection shell of the front differential and

2)it is liquid, (oil), cooled

SYNCRO T3, the front differential, the VCT, the locker.
[/b]

Fri May 31, 2013 12:12 pm

Here you can see how much "lighter" construction has the VCT of a T4 SYNCRO (EUROVAN):

(Βut it has two middle brackets for the shaft, which T3 lacks, and this is a weak point of T3).

Fri May 31, 2013 1:02 pm

Interesting discussion, thanks for your thoughts

> 1)LAND ROVER, JEEP and all vehicles with the same, traditional transmission:

> rear open dif., center open dif., front open dif..

I mention the Discovery because some of them have VCT center diffs, same as a T3 Syncro

> 2)SYNCRO: (ALL PASSENGER AND COMMERCIAL VEHICLES, including T3, T4, GOLF, PASSAT, JETTA, SHARAN):

> rear open dif., center VCT, front open dif..

> We see that these two categories should be equal, since they have open differentials all around!

Im not sure why you would say that a T3 Syncro with VCT and a Land Rover with no center VCT would be equal.

> the power goes to the axle with the zero traction!

I think you mean the power goes to the wheel with zero traction, on the same axle

The reason I consider the Disco with VCT and open front and rear diff superior to a T3 Syncro with VCT and open front and rear diff is because the Disco has superior articulation.

I saw a Disco with center VCT engaged, clear an obstacle that a Syncro could not clear without locking the rear diff.

The terrain was higher on the passenger rear than on the driver rear, while at the same time the terrain was higher on the driver front, than the passenger front

The T3 Syncro just stopped, driver rear spun, passenger front spun, no forward movement.

the Disco with center VCT (which they call locking center diff), drove right across both holes, and never had a wheel leave the ground, because of the superior articulation.

The syncro puts a wheel in the air MUCH more often than a Disco. Therefore the Syncro NEEDS to lock to cross obstacles that put a wheel in the air, while the Disco wheels stay in contact with the ground and move forward without locking.

I do completely agree that a T3 Syncro with rear locker has an advantage over a VCT equipped Disco with no rear locker. And of course a Syncro with a coupled VCT (that corresponds to a coupled VCT center diff on a Disco) has an advantage over a vehicle with no center VCT.

Fri May 31, 2013 1:16 pm

Jon_slider wrote: Interesting discussion, thanks for your thoughts

> 1)LAND ROVER, JEEP and all vehicles with the same, traditional transmission:

> rear open dif., center open dif., front open dif..

I mention the Discovery because some of them have VCT center diffs, same as a T3 Syncro

> 2)SYNCRO: (ALL PASSENGER AND COMMERCIAL VEHICLES, including T3, T4, GOLF, PASSAT, JETTA, SHARAN):

> rear open dif., center VCT, front open dif..

> We see that these two categories should be equal, since they have open differentials all around!

Im not sure why you would say that a T3 Syncro with VCT and a Land Rover with no center VCT would be equal.

> the power goes to the axle with the zero traction!

I think you mean the power goes to the wheel with zero traction, on the same axle

The reason I consider the Disco with VCT and open front and rear diff superior to a T3 Syncro with VCT and open front and rear diff is because the Disco has superior articulation.

I saw a Disco with center VCT engaged, clear an obstacle that a Syncro could not clear without locking the rear diff.

The terrain was higher on the passenger rear than on the driver rear, while at the same time the terrain was higher on the driver front, than the passenger front

The T3 Syncro just stopped, driver rear spun, passenger front spun, no forward movement.

the Disco with center VCT (which they call locking center diff), drove right across both holes, and never had a wheel leave the ground, because of the superior articulation.

The syncro puts a wheel in the air MUCH more often than a Disco. Therefore the Syncro NEEDS to lock to cross obstacles that put a wheel in the air, while the Disco wheels stay in contact with the ground and move forward without locking.

I do completely agree that a T3 Syncro with rear locker has an advantage over a VCT equipped Disco with no rear locker. And of course a Syncro with a coupled VCT (that corresponds to a coupled VCT center diff on a Disco) has an advantage over a vehicle with no center VCT.

1)The comparison, I made, is between three open differentials and open diff., VCT, open diff..

If two vehicles have, more or less, the same system, is the articulation, between some others, which counts, so I agree.

2)The Discovery has better articulation, full stop.

3)As for the Syncro, the two lockers, (front/rear), are a must.

Fri May 31, 2013 1:26 pm

Jeez, why did this thread have to turn into a pissing match?
The thread is "Syncro Off-Road Abilities" not syncro vs every other 4x4 matchup.
If you like something else better then buy it. A toyota landcrusher or Heep would be my choice for a dedicated wheeler.

I have gotten stuck behind discos on trails a few times where articulation wasn't the deciding factor on making it up. On one occasion 2 different drivers attempted the trail in the same car before they moved so that I could pass and I don't have dual lockers on my truck.

Fri May 31, 2013 1:41 pm

syncrodoka wrote: Jeez, why did this thread have to turn into a pissing match?
The thread is "Syncro Off-Road Abilities" not syncro vs every other 4x4 matchup.
If you like something else better then buy it. A toyota landcrusher or Heep would be my choice for a dedicated wheeler.

I have gotten stuck behind discos on trails a few times where articulation wasn't the deciding factor on making it up. On one occasion 2 different drivers attempted the trail in the same car before they moved so that I could pass and I don't have dual lockers on my truck.

You are right!

Apart from lockers and articulation, there are a lot of other factors, such as the weight of a vehicle, (the lighter the better), the gear ratios, the power, (torque), it contributes to the wheels, its weight distribution, the tires, etc., as well as the driver, (captain), mentioned before!

Fri May 31, 2013 1:43 pm

I edit this image, then print on clear vinyl and adhere them to the rear and side windows.........

So much easier than having to recall all of the technical facts and arguments.

Schooled.

Fri May 31, 2013 2:20 pm

syncrodoka wrote: Jeez, why did this thread have to turn into a pissing match?... I don't have dual lockers on my truck.

because the OP set it up that way:
"how about comparing the abilities of a Syncro to other vehicles "

if some people want to compare a disco with no locker to a syncro with a locker.. thats sort of what the OP wanted, I guess..

Fri May 31, 2013 2:36 pm

Jon_slider wrote: and obviously comparing your syncro with rear locker to a Disco with no rear locker is not apples to apples.
Yeah, it wouldn't be apples to apples if I was locked up. Just the fact that i have a rear locker doesn't give me an advantage.

The engine weight over the drive wheels alone is a advantage. I used to shame some toys when i would drive my 2wd bug with no lockers by them. Of course it isn't a fair comparison since i was running mismatched tires and missing any forward wheel pulling power. :roll:

Jon_slider wrote: because the OP set it up that way:
"how about comparing the abilities of a Syncro to other vehicles "
Sweet, i will back out of this discussion then since i don't see the point. Have fun.