TheSamba.com :: View topic - What would it roughly cost to restore this

Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:47 pm

I'm curious what it would roughly cost to restore this Camper bus to be road worthy for cross country camping? I'm trying to get a handle on cost to fix something like this up vs buying one already restored for $under $20k.

Pay a shop to fix all the body problems with fresh paint job (shops here in Phoenix Az charge about 50% less than most other places in the states. Buy a New engine and tranny and install myself with all parts associated with replacing engine and tranny. Cables, wires, hoses, switchs, brakes, suspension. Advice is sure appreciated!

1978 Westfalia Poptop Camper Van ready for resto.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/search.php?...ton=Search

Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:03 pm

That's a big question. What kind of resto are you looking to do. By the time my SC is done I may be in at 20. Read this thread...

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...highlight=

A good rebuilt engine starts around 3500 then goes up. Rebuilt tranny,600-1000. You will get a few more replys on this I'm sure.

Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:12 pm

Do it right and have all that rust removed. Ya, no one knows how much rust damage something like that has until you start removing the paint. So its all a guess. I know one other on this forum in Denver spent $7800 on his body and paint. But something like that would only be about $5000 in Phoenix.

Engine and tranny I figured as much. I think its nuts that alot of these bus's selling for high dollars come with 200,000 miles and no rebuilt engine and trans. Crazy...from all the break down threads ive read, you would think if someone were to spend over $12k on a VW Bus, it would come with a rebuild motor and trans...if you can trust the work (read those threads too lol )

Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:13 pm

Looking at the body there appears to be some rust that needs attention. Take a look at my restoration thread and you can get an idea of process and cost.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=479199&highlight=sage+green

I would just guess to do the proper restoration to make it like almost new your looking at $35,000. just depends how much welding needs to be done on the body.

Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:15 pm

parts have gotten expensive. Better set aside $25K if you want a nice bus or $10K for a sound but needs some minor body work bus. It isn't just the engine. You'll find that the brakes need work, the suspension front and rear needs work, etc etc. The best bet is to find one for around $6K - $7K with NO rust above or below that runs and then just fix the things that come up. You can do the engine for about $4K if you get it before it dies. Barn and Estate finds come up but the deals are far apart. $35K for a fully restored bus is realistic today if you look for the best at every step along the way. We had about $25k in the last one we did and I expect that after 10 - 12 years from now before we sell it, we will need to put another $5K into it to make it show well and get rid of the rock chips I know it will get.

Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:27 pm

After reading these forums the last few months I have become discouraged with Bay Bus's. The cost to restore and reliablity and performance issues are hard to take. Especially after watching and reading all the articles on the Ruby Air website....

Also especially that I live in hot hot hot Phoeniz Az.

Im close to caving in and giving up on my initial attraction to the 70's Bus life style and getting a functual watercooled 84+ VW bus Westy and pay $12k+ cash....not sure. Those bus's are so ugly. sigh

Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:28 pm

Am I the only one that thinks that $2500 is too much for a bus with rust, no engine and apparently no title!?

And being in Arizona, why would you even consider a bus with rust? IMO, no need to spend 20k. Buy a rust free, driving one for 5-7k.

stylinlp wrote: After reading these forums the last few months I have become discouraged with Bay Bus's. The cost to restore and reliablity and performance issues are hard to take. Especially after watching and reading all the articles on the Ruby Air website....

Also especially that I live in hot hot hot Phoeniz Az.

You mean Raby? Well, with all due respect, it's in his best interest to convince people that stock buses are underpowered crap. I stumbled across his posts discussing reliability recently while reading up on stuff and in all honesty, he's a total downer. To each his own.
That said, aircooled stuff is definitely not for everybody. If you are unsure about it, maybe it IS better to go with a Vanagon. Get a 2.1 if you're already going square. I personally don't mind Vanagons. They can look very nice with some P wheels, slightly lowered, great choice for suspension etc. In fact, they are a pretty nice cross-over between the two worlds. I always seen them as driving a big Rabbit. Which is great.

Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:31 pm

Batan wrote: You mean Raby?.
Oh now you've done it :shock: , it's like uttering Beetlejuice 3 times, now he'll appear and pee all over this thread, maybe that's why the OP misspelled the unspeakable word? :?

Stylinlp your link isn't showing any particular bus but as Batan mentioned a bus with more rust than the battery tray in AZ isn't worth the time to look and title issues add to the pain, keep looking. You're shopping in the right area but may be looking at the icing and not the cake.

Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:04 pm

:shock:

:lol: :lol: :lol: ^Bwahahahahahaha!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:13 pm

Present and accounted for.

But I really don't care what anyone does, to each his own. Just don't burn it down.

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:36 pm

Sounds like an air-cooled VW bus is not for you at all :( .

Pertinent questions-
Have you ever owned an ACVW of any model before?
How much actual hands on experience do you have with 35 year old vehicles?
How many VW shows and events have you gone to?
How long have you lived in Phoenix and where did you live before that?

Where do you come up with that info that paint and body work is half price in AZ? It's bogus. If you got that info by what people have spent for bus body and paint work in various places around the country then that's where your cost problem occured. That type of cost analysis only has to do with the amount of rot buses have in different locations because of climate. Few people around here buy rotted out buses. But it's common elsewhere. Few buses here need much rust repair. Elsewhere throwing 5 or 10K at rust repair is common. The reason? 4% relative humidity and 112F here in Phoenix today. As compared to Florida as an example. They were 30 degrees cooler than here today and their relative humidity was 85%. Reason of mentioning FLA is because they also have a very large ACVW following there. Few people here buy rust buckets that need the repair. I would never buy one that needs or has had any significant patch jobs.
Paint costs the same here as it does elsewhere. Body shop equip costs the same. That just leaves labor which can't be that much different. Now if you're talking how it's cheap in AZ then you might be talking Earl Scheib or Macco.

Next, you talk about a camper bus to be road worthy for cross country camping. And then you talk about paying a shop to fix all the body problems and with a fresh paint job. Which one or you talking both? It has to do with the quality and condition of the bus you start with. It doesn't necessarily have to do with how much you pay for a bus or how much work has been done to it. Unless it was quality workmanship then the P.O's big pile of receipts mean nothing. Regarding general body cosmetic appearance check out the thread about the lipstick bus that Aeromech got tangled up with. And contrary to what you said you can get a reasonable idea of what is underneath new paint. Same holds true with mechanical "restorations". That work can be worse than if no work at all had been done.

That '78 ready for resto is a rust bucket by our SW standards. You can do a lot better than that. No title, that's a big problem and you might end up with it being just a permanent lawn ornament. No engine and you think a used bus in general should have a rebuilt engine. So buy a rebuilt engine. The deal is you buy a long block. And that is only half of the engine. All of the externals on and connected to the engine are as big of a topic as the long block itself. F.I., all the electronics, exhausts, etc. Might be easier to also buy another complete bus for use as a parts bus.

What does reading articles on that website you mentioned have to do with anything? Evidently his $12,500 engine is real decent but evidently it's about impossible to even get one. The deal is hearing that every engine other than his is total junk. And the earlier engines that I totally love and others do also are about 3 levels lower than a pile of squat. We've all read the never ending insults about everything that hasn't come out of that particular shop. So many of us live a happy bus life with an "inferior" bus.

Here in Phoenix if you take a complete and fairly decent condition and rust free bus into a shop and have them go thru it doing a nice cosmetic and mechanical resto expect to pay $30-40,000 for their work. With earlier Bays like mine they are much more basic and simple and parts are much cheaper and easy to obtain. If you do the majority of the total work you can expect to pay roughly 1K per topic. Engine, trans, suspension/steering, brakes/tires, paint, upholstery, and so on.

The big question- What does Quote: Also especially that I live in hot hot hot Phoeniz Az. have anything to do with it?

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:48 pm

lot of good points here. like SG said, if you want relaiable, and need to pay someone to do your work, figure a solid 10K for mechanicals....engine, trans, suspension, brakes....no need to blow your load on a resto, especially if you are going to drive cross country.

this weekend, i did 140 miles in my freshly done 71 westy. as i was humping down I84, a solid, voltage regulator size wad of steel came right at me. you don't need that kind of bump and bruise stress on a fully restored bus.

like desertbus said, have you owned one? it isn't all the 'living the dream' bullshit people dream of. you're slow and in everyones way.

and don't get discouraged by engine prices. i know they are high for sure, hence so many swap threads. i am building a stroker now. had the case and cam, and am into it for 1K before heads and a full balance job. it sucks for sure.

owning a bus isn't for the faint of heart or shallow pockets

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:51 pm

stylinlp wrote: After reading these forums the last few months I have become discouraged with Bay Bus's. The cost to restore and reliablity and performance issues are hard to take. Especially after watching and reading all the articles on the Ruby Air website....

Also especially that I live in hot hot hot Phoeniz Az.

Im close to caving in and giving up on my initial attraction to the 70's Bus life style and getting a functual watercooled 84+ VW bus Westy and pay $12k+ cash....not sure. Those bus's are so ugly. sigh

There is nothing especially unreliable about these buses that hasn't endeared them to the public for 50+ years. Many folks cut their teeth working on VW's. There are folks here who can walk a person through repairing a bus with their eyes closed, who two or three years ago didn't know which end of a screwdriver to use. The money issue is different. Many who just drop by want a nice pristine drive anywhere bus that gets attention and hope to find it in a barn or cave where it starts like Woody Allen's hundreds of years old VW in Sleeper. You get what you pay for. Yes - 10 to 15 years ago they were easy to find and now it is getting harder. They said that about splits too and some of those have gone for over $200,000. Compare that to a bay. I can't drive mine anywhere without someone pulling into a gas station behind me to ask me if I want to sell it. Or taking photos with their phones to send to friends as they wave. Or like the lady at Yosemite who yelled out at the top of her lungs in a big crowd - "Look everyone its a VW bus." Everyone here know what I speak of - no one here does not have someone smile at them daily and tell them a story about their old bus. But they aren't for everyone.

Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:12 pm

SGKent wrote: stylinlp wrote: After reading these forums the last few months I have become discouraged with Bay Bus's. The cost to restore and reliablity and performance issues are hard to take. Especially after watching and reading all the articles on the Ruby Air website....

Also especially that I live in hot hot hot Phoeniz Az.

Im close to caving in and giving up on my initial attraction to the 70's Bus life style and getting a functual watercooled 84+ VW bus Westy and pay $12k+ cash....not sure. Those bus's are so ugly. sigh

There is nothing especially unreliable about these buses that hasn't endeared them to the public for 50+ years. Many folks cut their teeth working on VW's. There are folks here who can walk a person through repairing a bus with their eyes closed, who two or three years ago didn't know which end of a screwdriver to use. The money issue is different. Many who just drop by want a nice pristine drive anywhere bus that gets attention and hope to find it in a barn or cave where it starts like Woody Allen's hundreds of years old VW in Sleeper. You get what you pay for. Yes - 10 to 15 years ago they were easy to find and now it is getting harder. They said that about splits too and some of those have gone for over $200,000. Compare that to a bay. I can't drive mine anywhere without someone pulling into a gas station behind me to ask me if I want to sell it. Or taking photos with their phones to send to friends as they wave. Or like the lady at Yosemite who yelled out at the top of her lungs in a big crowd - "Look everyone its a VW bus." Everyone here know what I speak of - no one here does not have someone smile at them daily and tell them a story about their old bus. But they aren't for everyone.

It's so pesky to have to swat away all the teenyboppers that want to be taken for a ride. :?

Heck I had 10 full sized adults scram themselves into mine today.

Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:46 pm

I would recommend you consider your intent before you purchase a type II. If you are looking for a camper for a small family (we camp with up to 5) then a bus might be for you. If you enjoy working on your vehicles a vw might be for you. If the potpourri of a vw makes you feel like you arethe at home a vw might be for you.

Owning a vw requires different cranial hard wiring. I have a Toyota and I get in it, drive it and change fluids and do routine maintenance. The VW I have a plan for rebuilding and checking everything. I drive it for enjoyment and expect a certain level of struggle. For example, I don't drive it above 60 (even though the 2110 will do much more), I give plenty of braking room, I expect to stop ever hour or so to give my back and the bus a rest.

As for restoration, I would recommend holding out for a solid bus; focus on safety (brakes, bearings, bushing, suspension, fuel and brake lines, etc.). Then I would focus on the power plant.

Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:55 pm

Learn to do it yourself. I was a programmer who never touched a greasy thing and now I have no fear tearing into anything. Don't listen 'to the other guys' who do nothing and have never done anything except snipe on a forum :)

Failing that, take these guys advice, find the best bus you can afford and just drive it (and learn to work on it!).

To be pragmatic; a $3500 newish minivan is going to be basically 'better' in almost every single way than a Bay/Split ever will be. Like 1vwdog said, it's a mindset or paradigm shift that lets you be the VW way :)

Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:10 pm

I must agree with the Desertbusman in may respects...bodywork is NOT cheaper in Phoenix ( and we live in Mesa). We looked for quite a while to find a relatively original, well cared for California 78 Westy, and paid more because of the history and good body condition. With rust ( and an older repaint) you will find additional horrors waiting for you...and your wallet. Having a Bay in Phoenix, you have to be able to "wait out" the summer months..and drive in the early am, hopefully keeping her out of the sun until the fall and winter...or just take her out of town up north on the weekends....the engine can take the heat...but if you are like me you probably can't. A newer water cooled may be an option for you if you can find one with A/C ...but don't bet on it being as creature comfortable as a newer vehicle. The earlier buses before FI were easier, and less expensive to work on, and it is also easier to find techs who understand....and have worked on them. Take your time, do your research, drive lots of different buses of different years...and then decide what you really want. It really is "all about the chase" Bob

Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:25 pm

busdaddy wrote: Batan wrote: You mean Raby?.
Oh now you've done it :shock: , it's like uttering Beetlejuice 3 times, now he'll appear and pee all over this thread, maybe that's why the OP misspelled the unspeakable word? :?

I'll second that emotion. He has done himself a huge disservice around here in recent times.

OP, I have never wavered from my position that it is folly and false economy to buy a junker for cheap and think that you got a deal. Buy a good solid, running bus and take it from there. I have a very original and low mileage unit, and I can tell you that it still eats up a ton of money. A cheap junker with engine, transmission, and body issues is going to be a coffin for your bank book, unless you are a highly talented individual. You will need to jump in with both feet and learn to become as self sufficient as possible, even if you buy a good bus.

Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:29 pm

While I was growing up my parents drove nothing but classic cars. They sold and bought them all the time. I can tell you that no car that is 30 years old whether it be chevy, dodge, vw, bmw, etc is not going to need work and cash put into it. That's why when it came time for me to get a car I got an ACVW. I figured "why not have something different that near everbody loves and have fun with it?" I have driven buses for 15 years now and I think they are very reliable if the engine is built well and they are well maintained. I still don't see how they got the bogus wrap on reliability when there were millions of them on the road 35+ years ago and nobody had problems then. I say get your self a bus. If you are even slightly mechanically-minded you'll love the thing. And you'll be doing the world a favor by keeping a great car on the road for a little longer.

As for problems with buses being referred to as 'horrors': John Muir said the average person thinks of a car as a series of problems, the mechanic sees a car as a system that wears. It's only logical that a 30+ year-old system is going to have some wear. To me fixing it is all part of the fun!

Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:03 pm

Wowy what a response!@ Serious guys in here. reminds me of the AudioAsylum and AVS123 forums. Ask a question and you get really good expert answers. Big thank you.

First off, I have not got off the couch and do the first thing a newbie should do. Join the local VW club. I read of one in Phoenix that gives away a 60's Bus once a year in a raffle. They seem like a bunch of helpfull guys to get to know. Connect me to the right poeple to get VW work done. Just started this new job making good money so I am ready to start on this project.

For those of you in Phoenix I grew up with Doug. That bug/car flipper guy. Im sure you all know him. He isn't being very helpfull. Does not understand my attraction to a Bus. Especially the type4. He admits that he doesn't know much about type4's. So im on my own. Back in highschool we worked on his VW's and he helped me build a Baja but I never had the money to finish. So I have some exp. Not much. I know where all the parts are and I bought and read "How to Keep your Volkswagen Alive" book. Also bought 3 VW Bus interior Westy books. The latest is "My Cool Campervan". Also watched a TON of you tube video's on living in a Van.

After reading Raby's Aircooled site it scared me. Also checked out the Ford engine swap kit in Colorado and the Suburu conversion in San Fransisco. Those options solve alot of power/overheating issues of the standard 2.0 bus. All pricey. Unexceptable if the Bus I get needs rust work...the numbers wouldnt work. If im going to spend $10,000 buying a Bus and bodywork/paint Im definately not interested in paying another $8000 to $12000 more for a new engine. Now if someone were to sell all that for half what they paid....lol

So all that said, I understand your all correct. Pay extra and buy a nice bus. I've seen some great deals on the Vanagon listings. But the Bays are harder to find and Im worried from all the threads of read about climbing hills, over heating, and a real deal breaker that someone told me. Not sure if its true. They said that when you drive up to higher altitudes you have to change out the jets? Run to lean or something and burn the valves? Something like that. Didn't make sense to me that they havnt made a carb that self adjusts...but thats not an issue with F.I. Hence I really really favour the 77-79 Westy's. Especially the interior layouts. . Also the issue of having to adjust the lifters every 3000 Miles? Ouch....

Desertbusman

Quote: Pertinent questions-
Have you ever owned an ACVW of any model before?
How much actual hands on experience do you have with 35 year old vehicles?
How many VW shows and events have you gone to?
How long have you lived in Phoenix and where did you live before that?
Ditched highschool everyweek in the early 80's to work on friends bug and go cruising. Half built my own Bajabug til ran out of money.

Ive been to a number of Glendale Community College Park n Swaps with friends...never been to a VW show. Keep missing Bugarama.

Lived here since 1977 when I saw StarWars at the Cine Capri :)

Why I want a VW Bus? I like to hike. Drive out of this heat and head up to about 6000 feet and hike the mountains/lakes. So far in the last few months i've been hiking Prescott and Sedona. Im heading up there in a car this sunday. Cant get enough of it. I sure would like to spend the night up there and hike two days in a row. Then eventually branch out further and explore other states coast to coast.