TheSamba.com :: View topic - Porsche 944 axles and 944 CV's for Vanagons

Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:41 pm

Soooo Captain Slider
I'm curious about the pitted cv. Which one was it that got messed up? Seeing that you cut the extra clip and mounted the axles backwards I'm less concerned about the axles. But the pit in the cv has me curious. I think I'm going to trial them and perhaps up grade them to lobros if they fail. How long did you run the axle backwards before it snapped? How long on the cv's mounted backwards? I hear you say the clacked from day one, were they clocked and were they mounted backwards initially or upon rebuilding them. I'm seriously down the rabbit hole reading up on axle options, and anyone's advice would be sweet! Thanks for the info and reply Jon.
Cheers
D

Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:16 pm

I don't remember how many miles I ran the empi setup, guessing maybe 5k miles or less. Yes the CV's were clocked.

The axles got switched (causing reverse twist) and ran about 200 miles on pavement, then snapped the first time I spun a wheel after I went <20 miles Offroad.

The pit was a surprise with such low miles. I could speculate pitting was accelerated by the loose "Offroad" clearance, and that the clacking noise was the balls hammering the races of the joint, not sure. It might also be inconsistent or impure metallurgy (a favorite accusation of china bashers).

So, loose fit, noise, and early pitting of the Cv. Plus snapped axle after switching sides created reverse twist, when challenged by light Offroading wheelspin.

Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:28 pm

After doing so further research I've calculated the necessary axle length.
Based on this link...
http://www.swayaway.net/joomla/images/InstallInstructions/AxleLengthMeasurementInstructions.pdf

You can figure out what kind of axle length you require base on your lift and shock length. My van requires at least a 21 5/8th minimum and could take a 22" axle. I think the empi 21 3/8 is a hair to short for my application, especially at more extreme angles the cvs could be forced into. I'm going to purchase longer axles and see if that helps with the cv clacking and life of the joints and axles. Hopefully the longer axle will prevent the balls of the cv from getting pulled to the edge of the race. Keeping the inner star of the cv joint centered should hopefully give the joint a longer and happier life. It's not quite science but its all fun!
Ill report back when I try it out.
Jahbah

Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:51 pm

Quick question on this topic. I measured using Jon's instructions and get 19.5". I'm wondering if using my old axles and upgrading the cv's with van cafe's 16" CV's would work and what CV's these are? I like Burls front axles also.

Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:50 pm

bosruten wrote: Quick question on this topic. I measured using Jon's instructions and get 19.5". I'm wondering if using my old axles and upgrading the cv's with van cafe's 16" CV's would work and what CV's these are? I like Burls front axles also.

The Sycro 16 front CVs are a larger spline that the 14" CV joints, make sure you know what your doing before you order parts that wont work together. There is a big warning note on the Van Cafe Web site for the 16" front outer CVs because of this. Most often they are used with inner 930CVs which have the same spline count. There are also instances of shock body interferance with the larger CV half shafts. Burley has a packaged kit for swaping to these and if you have a fron locker....VW put the stronger 16CVs on vans with front locking differential.

Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:54 am

Thanks, I'm going to order Burl's and be done with it! :)
Oh...will running his set up front require any changes to my rear axle set up?

Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:49 am

bosruten wrote: Thanks, I'm going to order Burl's and be done with it!

I think youre throwing money at a problem you dont have.

Your 19.5" ride height does NOT require anything but stock CV's.

here is a very economical option IF for some reason, your current axles or CV's are broken or making ugly noises:

smurfpike wrote: half shafts that are complete with shaft, CV and boot

$129 for the front all new
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/Duralast-Go...12551_2805

$79.99 for the rear all new
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/Duralast-Go...12551_4024

IF you go to 16" CV's, you have to use different axles, and different stub axles, and different output flanges. After all that, you will no longer be compatible with a stock axle..

I cant think of any reason why you should go to 16" CV's with your stock motor and with your current ride height. But yes, if you put 16" CVs on the front, even though you dont need them, you should also put them on the back, where you also dont need them.

Or, did I miss the part where you say your Van has been breaking axles or CV's? If not, step away from the buy button.

Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:15 am

Just another data point (although not with a long history behind it)

I have the 'off road' empi CV's and torsional axles in the rear. ~7000mi or so on them, with all kinds of use in there. I don't go crazy off road, but have had it on 3 wheels more than a few times (with a locked rear)

The CV's are not clattery and all is fine (so far).

I clocked them when I assembled them as well.

The first ~4000mi was in 2wd configuration @ 17.5" ride height (with a EJ22). The last ~3000mi have been in 4wd config @ 19.5" ride height (with a EJ25).

tires = 27" grabber AT2
Weekender = not quite as heavy as some full syncro westy's

interetsing - a stock rear axle blew up several years ago after raising the rear ride height from stock (~200k mi) by ~1in. Tore the cage apart - lots of noise

YMMV (and my CV's might just blow up tomorrow :x :lol: )

Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:57 am

Farfrumwork wrote: I have the 'off road' empi CV's and torsional axles in the rear. ~7000mi or so on them

great details, thanks for including your ride heights, glad your setup is working

did you add a circlip groove to the Empi axle shaft, or just run them as delivered? My Empi offroad CVs were also clocked on the Empi torsional axle than snapped as described above..

Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:24 pm

Jon_slider wrote: bosruten wrote: Thanks, I'm going to order Burl's and be done with it! step away from the buy button.
Thanks....I owe you a beer! :lol:

Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:32 pm

Jon_slider wrote: Farfrumwork wrote: I have the 'off road' empi CV's and torsional axles in the rear. ~7000mi or so on them

great details, thanks for including your ride heights, glad your setup is working

did you add a circlip groove to the Empi axle shaft, or just run them as delivered? My Empi offroad CVs were also clocked on the Empi torsional axle than snapped as described above..

I am running them as delivered (no circlip). I was worried about wear on the outside end (either axle or hub face), but when I had them out after the first ~4000mi there was no noticeable affect. I may live to regret not adding a circlip,but I may also have new axles before that too :?

Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:42 pm

Jon_slider wrote: bosruten wrote: Thanks, I'm going to order Burl's and be done with it!

I think youre throwing money at a problem you dont have.

Your 19.5" ride height does NOT require anything but stock CV's.

here is a very economical option IF for some reason, your current axles or CV's are broken or making ugly noises:

smurfpike wrote: half shafts that are complete with shaft, CV and boot

$129 for the front all new
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/Duralast-Go...12551_2805

$79.99 for the rear all new
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/Duralast-Go...12551_4024

IF you go to 16" CV's, you have to use different axles, and different stub axles, and different output flanges. After all that, you will no longer be compatible with a stock axle..

I cant think of any reason why you should go to 16" CV's with your stock motor and with your current ride height. But yes, if you put 16" CVs on the front, even though you dont need them, you should also put them on the back, where you also dont need them.

Or, did I miss the part where you say your Van has been breaking axles or CV's? If not, step away from the buy button.

Who makes these axles???

Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:16 pm

Who makes 16" axels....several sources.....Empi ( hencho en China ) Sway Away ( hencho en USA made from same people who supply the Indy 500 racers and others like Burley Motorsports about 4 times the cost of Empi ) as far as dimensions you will have to come up with those yourself if your not capable of doing that then, I suggest you check with a well known Samba parts vendor who specializes in Syncro parts.

Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:52 pm

4x4BNB wrote: Who makes these axles???

I cant tell if youre asking about 930's or Autozones.

If youre asking who makes Autozone axles, I do not know, but I was not recommending them to you, I was suggesting them to the person with a 2wd.

I do know a couple syncros that use them, but they are basically in the same category as Empi. Inexpensive.

For a serious offroad syncro like yours, I recommend Lobro CVs.

read more about the background on using Autozone axles in this thread
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7364880

as far as 930 axles, contact burleymotorsports, euromog, and GoWesty

regarding 944CVs, I have used Empi offroad with empi torsional axles, as described in the beginning of this thread. I now use Lobro 944's, which fit a stock Vanagon axle. I currently have axles from a porsche, thanks to my good friend tdwesty, who first taught me that 944s are an option. I use stock Lobro front axles, only my rears are 944's.

Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:10 am

So for now, my stock sized lobro cv's should work with 944 axles? Then I f I need to later, I can replace my cv's with 944 cv's?

Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:28 am

4x4BNB wrote: So for now, my stock sized lobro cv's should work with 944 axles? Then I f I need to later, I can replace my cv's with 944 cv's?

true, yes, stock Syncro CVs fit 944 axles, be sure you get the ones with the correct 33 spline count, Im not well versed on which years Porsche matches, but 87 Porsche 944 Axles and CVs are correct.

My info came from tdwesty, verify with him if you have questions about sourcing Porsche axles

When tdwesty sourced my Porsche 944 axles, used from a junkyard, he marked the driver side and passenger side before removing them, so that we (he actually) could install them on the same side on my syncro, to avoid reversing the twist direction of the axle.

Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:33 am

Does anyone know where I could buy the 944 driveshaft and cv complete.

Thx

Sat Nov 01, 2014 10:14 am

Tony_de_whitt wrote: Does anyone know where I could buy the 944 driveshaft and cv complete.

from a Porsche dealer in your area? Are you in Perth, OZ?

googled Perth Porsche and got this:
http://www.chellingworthporsche.com/Porsche-Genuine-Parts-and-Enquiry

Welcome to Samba. What configuration of Syncro are you driving?, How much horsepower does your motor have (stock motor, no need 944), what is your height from center of wheel to bottom of fender lip. (less than 20", no need 944)...

Have you been breaking axles, or CVs? Or why are you thinking you want to spend new money?

Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:57 am

Thx jon slider

Sorry ive been away.
Running an ej22 and just put progressive springs on.

I didnt change shocks and was running old man emu shocks which are the only ones i could get to fit here in perth at the time.

Once new springs were put on i found my shocks to be fully extended and rather an uncomfortable ride.

I was concerned if i changed shocks and not cvs i would be over articulating them. Hence I started looking at my options.

Plus the fact I bought the heavy duty springs as when fully loaded with family we are a bit on the heavy side.

Currently I'm rebuilding my interior so syncro is empty :-( hence sitting in the highest possible position if you follow me.

A friend had done the same and had popped 2 cvs in a week.

So ive changed cvs (944) and put land rover shocks on so far so good.

I will try and get a measurement. So from the centre of the wheel to the underside of the wheel arch?

I ended up using the original vw driveshafts with the 944 cvs and hoping all will be good.

Cheers

Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:34 am

Tony_de_whitt wrote: So from the centre of the wheel to the underside of the wheel arch?

yes, 21" is very extreme, 19.5" is not excessive at all, I think a stock syncro is 18.5" ride height (fender lip to wheel center)

I hope things work well, enjoy!