TheSamba.com :: View topic - Heavy 2WD Westy, choppin up front tires..

Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:49 pm

Rancho RS5136 shock.
Compressed length: 11.250"
Extended length: 17.375" Travel: 6.125"

Koni front 82-2100
compressed 262mm - (10.3 in.)
extended 374mm - (14.7 in.)

Bilstein front F4-B46-0820-HD
compressed 260mm - (10.24 in.)
extended 380.5mm - (15 in.)

The Koni and Bilstein compressed lengths were pulled from this Samba thread
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4105109

The Rancho compressed length was pulled from the greater internets.

If true.. the Rancho shock shouldn't EVER allow contact with the upper fender.. Its 1" full inch taller at full compression.
1" !!!
I'd verify that number.. and if it is the case. that should fix the problem entirely.. (with limiting strap of course).

No?

Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:50 pm

timbo wrote: insyncro wrote: Limiting straps are needed correct?

yuppers!! :D

So the shock tube will be 3 inches longer than stock.
Likely it is hitting the bumpstop before the tire hits the fender

Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:16 pm

240Gordy wrote: --So the shock tube will be 3 inches longer than stock.
Likely it is hitting the bumpstop before the tire hits the fender

<please see comments about fender/arch trimming and the posted shock dimensions straight from Rancho>

Running the Rancho shocks, Moog 5662's , has gotten rid of the nose-dive and maintained the lift, the arch trimming has gotten rid of the "rubbing and scraping" of the tires up front which I kind of think is the OP's original issue no?

The extra length shocks have given a bit more travel compared to stock and has also allowed the 3"'s of suspension lift, plus the needed tire clearance.The rear only needed a bit of trimming in front and behind the wheel and the trailing arm seam gropund off and welded up for tire room.

Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:01 pm

Timbo..

Are you using limiting straps in front?
And if so.. at what droop are you limiting to.

In my own measuring the suspension binds about 3/4-1" beyond where the Bilstien HD limits droop. So that woud be about 1" BEFORE where the Rancho shock would stop the suspension on extension?

If allowed to extend to the full length of the Rancho shock.. isn't undo stress being put on the radius control arms and the RCA bushing bulkhead?

Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:59 pm

no straps on the front but the radius arm bushings sure do get a work out. I did trim a tiny bit off the bottom corner lip of the "bulkhead"?? where the inside radius arm 'washer' was bottoming out. I guess I could have cut a flat into the 'washer' instead but hind sight is always 20/20. On lots of front droop the UCA does contact the spring but have not had a problem........yet...... :D I was also thinking of getting rid of the stock radius arm bushing/washer end and fabbing up a heim-joint setup. Pretty simple idea actually. An angled bracket for the heim to pivot on, either find a heim joint that threads onto the stock radius arm, or fab a new arm...........Burley knows what I'm talking about.

Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:22 pm

dubbified wrote: Hey,...

Haven't read the rest of the thread...sure that the collective wisdom has got you on the right path...just want to offer my 2 centavos...

Tuck the wheels in...runnin' LT225/75/16 mud terrains on CLKs on 2WD...effective ET 30...catch mad air and mad compression with no fender bangin'...done with modified UCAs...can also be done with Burley UCAs.

Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:21 am

timbo wrote: Burley knows what I'm talking about.
Yeah.. He and I talked about this. He said he's done similar on Ford Ranger 2WD trucks.. using a heim joint. Its an interesting idea, but I am wondering about losing that bushing. I'll be paying attention.
He'll be back up here for Van-O-Rama.. so maybe I'll buy him lunch and we can discuss further.

I saw his long travel 2WD Silverado when he visited a couple weeks ago. Mad-man SICK!... what he has done on the front end of that thing.

Anyhoo.. I am very cruious about using a shock similar to the Rancho.
I know Snoop fixed his cutting problem with modifying the UCA and using the Monroe coilover to boost the GW 2" lift spring.

Timbo.. if its not too much trouble, can you do a measurement for us.
Lift you van on a floor jack and get the hub to fender measurement with suspension extneded as far as the shock/RCA allows it to go?

Thanks.

Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:36 pm

Thank you all for input on this.

I'm all thumbs at the moment, just burned my the isht outta my hand bangin out the welding on the slider door track mod yesterday,that was interesting.

As we are now full time staying in the van I had wanted to get the slider completed.

Monday, I had the fenders pounded out pretty good, lip rolled. I know more stringent action will be needed. I'm interested in those Moog/Ranchos and what sorta height that's at.. also what sorta curb weight is happening.

Definitely will be getting straight weight numbers this week/next, and I'm looking to get the hardware lined up to answer the problem I'm facing within two weeks. Slow down, sure, but I think my travels are going to require updating the spring/shock..

On the weight I did get, Yes, that weight is per the trash dump scale.. surely its not entirely accurate. I know a speedshop I can get an accurate measure, or if someone local knows an ideal place to weight check, feel free to PM or update this thread please!

Through this week, I'm in Fab/welding mode, I'm working on putting finishing touches on underbody battery tray, sliders, rear swingout/platform.

Unfortunately since this is a first build for me, and I've been shooting from the hip without a actual shop, a couple redos for me, I've got to reposition the cross member as its angle is slightly droopy, and the ladder is obscuring the license frame.. oops. gunna put that new angle grinder to work!

Glad the weather is cooperating..

Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:50 pm

j_dirge wrote: Timbo.. if its not too much trouble, can you do a measurement for us.
Lift you van on a floor jack and get the hub to fender measurement with suspension extneded as far as the shock/RCA allows it to go?

Thanks.

Give me a a few days and I'll post what I come out with.........life's kinda busy with this awesome weather......I've been spending my days out in the woods on my mtn bike :D

Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:27 pm

j_dirge wrote: timbo wrote: Burley knows what I'm talking about.
Yeah.. He and I talked about this. He said he's done similar on Ford Ranger 2WD trucks.. using a heim joint. Its an interesting idea, but I am wondering about losing that bushing. I'll be paying attention.
He'll be back up here for Van-O-Rama.. so maybe I'll buy him lunch and we can discuss further.

I saw his long travel 2WD Silverado when he visited a couple weeks ago. Mad-man SICK!... what he has done on the front end of that thing.

Anyhoo.. I am very cruious about using a shock similar to the Rancho.
I know Snoop fixed his cutting problem with modifying the UCA and using the Monroe coilover to boost the GW 2" lift spring.

Timbo.. if its not too much trouble, can you do a measurement for us.
Lift you van on a floor jack and get the hub to fender measurement with suspension extneded as far as the shock/RCA allows it to go?

Thanks.

Thuoght he did that only to the rear? monroe coil in the front?

hmm.

Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:42 pm

I had a set of Monroe Max-airs on the front for a while ......they gave me the lift/clearance but rode pretty harsh when pumped up.........put a set-of adjustable coil-overs on the front for a bit too (don't recall the brand) they rode pretty hard too. Put the Ranchos back in and lived with the tire bumping until the 5662's (Moog). I got the clearance, and a bit stiffer ride.....all I was looking for was minimal front-end drop when loaded up with gear and 6 of us. Rides really nice when loaded up....I guess I could have gone with smaller/narrower wheels and tires and got to the same point but oh well........I like messing with the van :D

Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:42 pm

While everything mentioned in this thread can be contributors to the tire to fender contact issue, the biggest cluprits are the effective wheel offset and to slightly lesser degree, the tire size.

The Carrot wheels have a 25mm offset and the Small Car brakes move the wheel outward about 8mm (the rotor hat acts like a 7.2mm spacer). This leaves you with an effective 18mm offset. Combine that with the semi-tall tires that you have (27.5") and that right there is sure recipe for the contact issue. Unless that is addressed, everything else will be a band-aid to one degree or another.

Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:00 pm

Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:21 pm

Christopher Schimke wrote: While everything mentioned in this thread can be contributors to the tire to fender contact issue, the biggest cluprits are the effective wheel offset and to slightly lesser degree, the tire size.

The Carrot wheels have a 25mm offset and the Small Car brakes move the wheel outward about 8mm (the rotor hat acts like a 8.2mm spacer). This leaves you with an effective 17mm offset. Combine that with the semi-tall tires that you have (27.5") and that right there is sure recipe for the contact issue. Unless that is addressed, everything else will be a band-aid to one degree or another.

Lots of band-aids in my quest for a high-roller! Hopefully 'dubbified' will find a shorter route to get where he wants/needs to be. :D

Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:48 pm

timbo wrote: Christopher Schimke wrote: While everything mentioned in this thread can be contributors to the tire to fender contact issue, the biggest cluprits are the effective wheel offset and to slightly lesser degree, the tire size.

The Carrot wheels have a 25mm offset and the Small Car brakes move the wheel outward about 7.2mm (the rotor hat acts like a 8.2mm spacer). This leaves you with an effective 18mm offset. Combine that with the semi-tall tires that you have (27.5") and that right there is sure recipe for the contact issue. Unless that is addressed, everything else will be a band-aid to one degree or another.

Lots of band-aids in my quest for a high-roller! Hopefully 'dubbified' will find a shorter route to get where he wants/needs to be. :D

Yeah, I wouldn't disagree that certain compromises are made when lifting (or lowering a Vanagon, but having an offset that is so far out of spec exacerbates the problem to a fairly high degree.

For example, if a person was going to play around with bump stop lengths in an effort to prevent the tire from making contact with the fender lip, all other things being equal, a van with a 30mm offset will require much less additional bump stop length to achieve that goal than one with a wheel offset of 18mm. This means that the van with the 18mm offset will have less upward wheel travel (due to the longer bump stops) compared to the van with a 30mm offset.

Yes, any additional bump stop length is a band-aid of sorts (only because it limits upward travel), but the shorter the additional bump stop length, the less impact it has on the overall travel. In other words, to prevent the tires from making contact with the fender lip, the overall travel of the suspension would have to be reduced more on a van with a 18mm offset wheel than one with a 30mm offset wheel, again, all other things being equal.

Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:11 pm

something wrong with mypost, it was all blank.. odd, I clicked edit, all the text showed..

weird..

Big wheels keep on turnin!

I love those wheels.. and Yep Peter did warn me.. I wont deny it!

Something about the driveability/feel of the wider stance, I'll do what is needed to keep that clearance, and the tire setup..

I am lookin at those Moogs.. that looks ideal, not too bad of a price either.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=342520&highlight=spacer

A shackle sounds more affordable vs replacing a set of struts, and allows me to keep the adjustability of the dampening as needed. but whether that will increase overall throw to an undesired length... hmm.

:)

I spent alot on rubber/tires, so I'd like to enjoy them.. being I actually like the way they look... and have had ET issues on smaller cars, should be a way to get around that..

I am looking at possibly lengthening the konis short throw and using them with the Moogs.. Is anyone here presently using a spacer? The screw in stud extender isnt something i can wait for delivery on.. saw they can be ordered for 80 a pair.

To weld the shock/strut body, or to weld a bracket hmmmm..Lookin back on a earlier thread this year I'd weighed out using the spacer found in this thread, was looking for useability feedback if anyone has some..

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=342520&highlight=spacer

Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:24 pm

Well.. no doubt.. a set of CLKs or MBZ steelies will help solve the problem.
But I do not consider changing shock travel lengths a "band-aid" fix but rather a "compromise".. necessary to run certain tire/wheels combos.

Its up to the individual to decide if the compromise is worth the trade-offs.

Lots of compromises are made every day driving these things.. The Vanagon itself is a matter of choice.

Still.. with a set of CLKs (ET37) minus the disk hat 8mm.. He's sitting at ET29 with a fairly wide/tall tire.

Experience tells me that if he is to drive on uneven terrain.. especially loaded up, he will still need to increase bump stop (compromising upward travel by as much as 1/2") to avoid tires hitting the upper fender.. And still possibly requiring rolling the fender lip and/or bumping it out a skoash.

The latter can be done for hundred bucks and change.. and only takes a shop a day to do.. riight?

Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:25 pm

I've never seen a bump stop upfront.. I will have to do a doubletake.

hmm.

Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:38 pm

dubbified wrote: I've never seen a bump stop upfront.. I will have to do a doubletake.

hmm.
The shock acts as limiter to upward travel. Where it bottoms is where the suspension upward travel stops.

Over the shock is a dust boot with a rubber pad approximately 1/2" thick.. some of us have added a disk inside that rubber boot pad unit.. effectively limiting the upward travel by adding an additional 1/2" of pad.
In my case I have the Bilstein HDs with the compressed length listed further up this page.

I am almost 100% certain my tires will hit again under the right circumstances.. and further corrective action is necessary.

I very much like my BFG Long Trails and will spend a few more bucks to get the remaining 40-50k miles out of them. Sadly.. they do not make a smaller size. A 215/70 or 65 would further help my situation.

Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:55 pm

Kinda amazed that increasing bumpstop dimension is being considered as a solution to the problem of fender well impact.

Intentionally reducing the amount of articulation that your rig can execute is waaaaay more negative an outcome than any positive, whatever that might be, that it achieves.

And given that one can run any size tire, including as big as is possible within the constraints of the 14" wheelwell, and realize FULL suspension articulation, by utilizing either a simple UCA modification or (presumably...jim?) Burley UCAs...well, yea, kinda amazed.