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Flavio Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:21 am

Very interesting...
Yes, Matt is right. The head valves have the same measure when compared with the earlier 36 Hp.
Don, about the camshaft I don't have the means to measure it. It's in the engine that I'm using with the WW kit. Maybe in December I will fit a 69.5 crankshaft that I have and then I will measure the cam.

Another difference that I notice is with the intake manifold. Burly, I've used your photo to show the earlier manifold measure between those holes. With the 1963 36 Hp manifold that distance has more about 1.3 cm, and, also, considering just the two holes that exist on the small flange that connects to the exhaust, they are in a different location:
- In the earlier model they are "out of center" in relation to the tube.
- In the later model the holes are in line with the tube.
As a result, the "real" distance between those holes in the photo below is even bigger. About 2.3 cm total, hence the need to use the exhaust extensions. Those extensions have 23 mm which is the measure we need to fit everything good.

36hplandspeedracer Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:20 am

Everett, the 69 VW Without Guesswork booklet is the same issue I received when I attended VW's engine building classes at Volkswagen Pacific in late 68.

My 69 version shows two different 1200 VW engine's, the "A" version with 36 SAE horsepower(it shows ALL 36 engines as the A version- no 25hp or other 36hp engines are listed!) and built through 1965 ( I always thought that was a missprint and had overwritten the 1965 with a 1960! That was corrected a few years ago when I found out about the later 36ers) and a second 1200 VW engine, the "D" version, listing 41.5 SAE horsepower (i.e., the 40hp!). The industrial section of the book ( engine Type 122 ) lists essentially the same info but with slightly "lower" horsepower ratings while retaining the same torque.

The A version 36 lists 6.6 to 1 compression in Guesswork on page 4 and the "D" version lists 7.0 to 1 compression. Since the second compression ratio is from a 40hp version Helfen, do you think it is possible VW created a 36hp with the 7.2 CR like yours has or is it possibly from an unknown variation in the 65 111 engine you possess?

Guesswork lists the 36hp combustion chamber size as between 45.4 and 47.0, probably allowing for manufacturing variances.

Cam follower diameter on the 36 is listed at 14.98 to 14.97( I don't know what that measurement refers too?).

Valve head diameter on the 36 is listed at 30.0 for the intake and 28.0 for the exhaust. No other variations are listed.

Here is a side note. While researching in the Guesswork I found this reference in the Industrial engine section on cooling fan flow capacity:

36hp............18 cubic feet of air per second at 3300 rpm's.

1500cc.........20 cubic feet of air per second at 3800 rpm's.

1600cc(S/P)..20 cubic feet of air per second at 4000 rpm's(same fan as 1500).

This indicates installing the 36hp (or even a 25hp with less blades) fan should improve horsepower at the cost of engine cooling.

I hope this detailed info from a VW factory publication helps clarify what we do know for fact! Still, is other VW factory information out there that would contradict the Guesswork booklet?

Burly

John Moxon Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:46 am

I'm not sure what relevance this will have but the Brazilian Beetles never used the 40hp engine. Whereas the 40hp was used from Aug '60 for German produced Beetles the Brazilian version retained the 36hp engine until the advent of the 1500cc engine in 1967.

It would be interesting to find out who supplied the Brazilian 36hp engines. Were the castings from their Sao Paulo factory or imported from Germany.

Maybe there is some official Brazilian VW documentation about the 1960-67 36hps.

Mr. Motorhead Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:06 am

Parts listings from Brazil are a real gray area, John. Just a small example. In the 90s if you bought a set of Brazil COFAP pistons and cylinders, what came in the box was German Kolbenschmidt pistons and cylinders. There also used to be round can Brazil 36hp mufflers available too. These had kind of a straight shot empty can design like some of the Walker brand mufflers at the time. They were cheap and thinner material on the can and were louder when installed on the car especially if you used taper tips or a non baffled pea shooter. They also have a bigger opening on the head flanges. Where any of the Brazil parts were made seems to be a mystery which is one of the reasons why most VW shops didn't like them.

I would be curious about the cam grinds. It's not so much the grind I wonder about but rather the different brands of cams I find in core engines, are they all the same? Some are VW branded while some are no name cams that are German made. I have found both kinds of German cams in core teardowns that were unmolested factory assembled engines (I don't get many of those anymore). And then of course the Brazil replacements that were available up to about eight years ago. Then we have the regrinds. I know of three different cam grinders that have a master for a stock grind, are they all the same?

36hplandspeedracer wrote: Guesswork lists the 36hp combustion chamber size as between 45.4 and 47.0, probably allowing for manufacturing variances.

I find that that is about the average for most heads, the ones closer to the 47cc mark are the ones that still have a slight step cut in the chamber area. About 80% of the heads I get have been worked on at least once, the step is usually gone. The head I prefer to build is the later style as the web around the exhaust port and spark plug area is less prone to crack.


John Moxon Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:22 am

The real question about the 36hp engines fitted to the Brailian Beetles is if they were supplied from Germany were the ones supplied after 1960 the 36hps fitted to the Standard Beetle...the ones with the higher CR heads?

36hplandspeedracer Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:24 pm

Helfen, your question about what my 36hp case is was driving me crazy so I dove into the garage storage to get you the details. The engine number is:

KD1437024
and features a solid drain plug boss (never having been drilled and tapped!) indicating the drain plug was fitted in the oil sump plate as in 40hp and later engines.

With this engine number, I went through all of the VW books in my library and still could not find any reference to such an engine number. Does the KD indicate this engine was originally intended for a KDF knock down VW for overseas delivery? Or does the KD represent something else?

I searched the following books:

Volkswagens of the World by Simon Glen (no engine number or even descriptions were found!).

The Beetle by Etzold. His Engine Identifications pages (219-221) show 36hp engine numbers from #695282 in 1954 through #4050000 in 1965-also noted as "final" engine in the series!

Wondering if KD might represent a factory engine rebuild to replace a specific engine? Etzolds 36hp engine numbers do not include a series that would have #1437024 as part of the sequence. Engine numbers 1277348 through 1678208 are missing from 1955 to 1956 sequence which is where my engine number would fit? Hm-m-m-m?

Volkswagen in Australia by Davies-Again, no engine numbers or descriptions provided.

1969 VW Without Guesswork-Page's 138-139 show mile per hour top speed for both the Standard Sedan and the Model A Sedan indicating identical engine characteristics. I could not find any 36hp engine numbers referred too in Guesswork.

So, any ideas on what 36hp engine number KD1437024 is, when it was created or where it was created? Engine part numbers cast in are
111-101-101A for the drivers side and 111-101-102A for the generator stand side.

I will appreciate any and all information.

Tootaloo.........................

Burly

RichardinNZ Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:08 pm

My CKD '58 (New Zealand) has a normal engine number....I think they were sent out built (although I reacll the spark plugs were local manufacture!).

Richard

36hplandspeedracer Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:22 pm

Thanx Richard for the input!

Burly

Mr. Motorhead Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:49 pm

36hplandspeedracer wrote: The engine number is:

KD1437024
and features a solid drain plug boss (never having been drilled and tapped!) indicating the drain plug was fitted in the oil sump plate as in 40hp and later engines.


Save for the"KD" that number looks suspiciously like a vin number. The reason I say that is because I just did a 40hp a couple weeks ago that was stamped with the vin of the car. It was a factory replacement unnumbered complete engine that was installed at a dealership. All of the later production 36 cases that I've seen have the drain plug on the sump plate without the boss tapped for the drain. Another characteristic of the later case is drilled and tapped 6mm holes at the bottom of the case for the heater box sleds to attach to.

Helfen Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:08 pm

36hplandspeedracer wrote: Helfen, your question about what my 36hp case is was driving me crazy so I dove into the garage storage to get you the details. The engine number is:

KD1437024
and features a solid drain plug boss (never having been drilled and tapped!) indicating the drain plug was fitted in the oil sump plate as in 40hp and later engines.

With this engine number, I went through all of the VW books in my library and still could not find any reference to such an engine number. Does the KD indicate this engine was originally intended for a KDF knock down VW for overseas delivery? Or does the KD represent something else?

I searched the following books:

Volkswagens of the World by Simon Glen (no engine number or even descriptions were found!).

The Beetle by Etzold. His Engine Identifications pages (219-221) show 36hp engine numbers from #695282 in 1954 through #4050000 in 1965-also noted as "final" engine in the series!

Wondering if KD might represent a factory engine rebuild to replace a specific engine? Etzolds 36hp engine numbers do not include a series that would have #1437024 as part of the sequence. Engine numbers 1277348 through 1678208 are missing from 1955 to 1956 sequence which is where my engine number would fit? Hm-m-m-m?

Volkswagen in Australia by Davies-Again, no engine numbers or descriptions provided.

1969 VW Without Guesswork-Page's 138-139 show mile per hour top speed for both the Standard Sedan and the Model A Sedan indicating identical engine characteristics. I could not find any 36hp engine numbers referred too in Guesswork.

So, any ideas on what 36hp engine number KD1437024 is, when it was created or where it was created? Engine part numbers cast in are
111-101-101A for the drivers side and 111-101-102A for the generator stand side.

I will appreciate any and all information.

Tootaloo.........................

Burly

My 65 36 hp does not have the drain plug in the case either...just the boss. The oil is drained through the strainer plate like the 40hp and later engines. Sounds like your engine is a Re-manufactured engine engine from the Kassel Plant in Germany (KD signifies this) so the numbers are only for reference in relation to the factory and it's re-stampings. Your engine is one of the newer cases though because of the drain plug location. Check your cases main bearing saddles for being over-sized. Was wondering if you have a complete engine-tin and all. BTW the tin and the intake manifold are also unique to these engines. The heat riser tubes are longer to reach the 40 hp muffler and the breast plate has holes for the the flex tube connection to the muffler.. This is my fresh air 36;
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/516081.jpg
Here is a factory replacement advert.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q16/threespoke/standardkafer/literature/LIT265brocengine.jpg
I'll bet this engine was destined for Canada because it's got a crankcase devise from the oil filler/ separator/ road draft tube to the air cleaner tube

36hplandspeedracer Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:22 pm

Sadly, all I have is the case, nothing more. I appreciate your interst and advice.

Burly

Beetspeed Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:01 am

36hplandspeedracer wrote:

Here is a side note. While researching in the Guesswork I found this reference in the Industrial engine section on cooling fan flow capacity:

36hp............18 cubic feet of air per second at 3300 rpm's.

1500cc.........20 cubic feet of air per second at 3800 rpm's.

1600cc(S/P)..20 cubic feet of air per second at 4000 rpm's(same fan as 1500).

This indicates installing the 36hp (or even a 25hp with less blades) fan should improve horsepower at the cost of engine cooling.

Burly
Actually, from the above numbers, I deduct that the 36hp fan with its pulley ratio moves the most air, then the 1500cc...
The output in cu.ft/min of these type of fans are proportional to their rpm, so 18 cfm at just 3300 rpm is suddenly 20,72 cfm at 3800 rpm's.
So, I'd say the 36hp fan flows more at the same rpm, providing the pulley ratios are equal 8)

Somebody is probably gonna say s/th now about air stalling (cavitating) inside the fan housing but that happens sooo far up the rpm range (has been tested by someone long time ago for a science paper iirc), the belt will slip way before that from drawing so much hp to move all that extra air. Not an issue at these low rpm's we're talking about here.

The 1600 designation that it also moves 20cfm at a higher rpm (4000) probably means a lower pulley ratio as it says the fans are the same.

So, 36hp moves slightly more air at the same rpm :D

I have a late 36hp engine including the exhaust extensions, but since these are rated at 30 DIN hp/36SAE hp too, I am very sure the compression ratio is the same as all other 36hp and surely not higher then even a later 40hp engine.
I'll check the number later tonite and I have a Werks VW book with engine numbers :wink:




36hplandspeedracer Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:29 am

Walter, Beaver Geezer Dan is shifting his SS36 at 5000 RPM and Bville Tom (Bruch) is shifting his NA36 at 6-6500 RPM's. How does their original 36hp fan speed compute regarding the cavitation?

Burly

Beetspeed Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:47 am

We just had a car on the dyno here with a very strong type 1 2386cc engine that lost 14.5 hp at 6500 rpm (max hp with fan). At 5000 there was hardly any loss (3 or 4 hp iirc).
At 7K the loss got exponentially bigger, but without fan he now made max power at 7K instead of 6.5K..

Usually the fan starts to slip some at very high rpm because the 9mm fan belt's contact-surface just cannot transfer those amounts of power(loss) anymore :wink
Thats why racers have a setting with their fan belt they call 'race-loose' so they don't break their fan blades and make more power :wink:

Dan told us himself his fan is even more loose then that, on the verge of flying off by itself right?. That answers your q I think.
Of course you do take a risk when running a mile on WOT without proper cooling. Thats racing too huh? :wink:

Oh, here's the engine number list from the blue VW Werks Parts Book:

dandand Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:13 am

Did I mention that we run a cylinder head temp gauge (a thermocouple under the spark plug, from an ultralight aircraft), and it shows very little temp change from racing at WOT to loafing along on the return road.
Also, my very loose fan belt has a larger than standard section width which also reduces the fan speed slightly. (Another Ron Chuck tuning trick).
And, the generator still works, although we could have disconnected the field to gain a few more tenths, I suppose.
Dan

Helfen Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:29 am

Beetspeed wrote: 36hplandspeedracer wrote:

Here is a side note. While researching in the Guesswork I found this reference in the Industrial engine section on cooling fan flow capacity:

36hp............18 cubic feet of air per second at 3300 rpm's.

1500cc.........20 cubic feet of air per second at 3800 rpm's.

1600cc(S/P)..20 cubic feet of air per second at 4000 rpm's(same fan as 1500).

This indicates installing the 36hp (or even a 25hp with less blades) fan should improve horsepower at the cost of engine cooling.

Burly
Actually, from the above numbers, I deduct that the 36hp fan with its pulley ratio moves the most air, then the 1500cc...
The output in cu.ft/min of these type of fans are proportional to their rpm, so 18 cfm at just 3300 rpm is suddenly 20,72 cfm at 3800 rpm's.
So, I'd say the 36hp fan flows more at the same rpm, providing the pulley ratios are equal 8)

Somebody is probably gonna say s/th now about air stalling (cavitating) inside the fan housing but that happens sooo far up the rpm range (has been tested by someone long time ago for a science paper iirc), the belt will slip way before that from drawing so much hp to move all that extra air. Not an issue at these low rpm's we're talking about here.

The 1600 designation that it also moves 20cfm at a higher rpm (4000) probably means a lower pulley ratio as it says the fans are the same.

So, 36hp moves slightly more air at the same rpm :D

I have a late 36hp engine including the exhaust extensions, but since these are rated at 30 DIN hp/36SAE hp too, I am very sure the compression ratio is the same as all other 36hp and surely not higher then even a later 40hp engine.
I'll check the number later tonite and I have a Werks VW book with engine numbers :wink:





Interesting Photo there, you have the new engine ( looks like Canadian because of the hose bib that connects to the air cleaner (crankcase devise) and a old type 28 PCI carburetor and fuel line to the carburetor. The newer type 28PCI has a pressed in short fuel line and a hose to the fuel pump. Your fuel pump is also the old style.

Beetspeed Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:34 am

Ok, thanks for the infos Dan & Helfen!

36hplandspeedracer Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:37 am

GREAT info from both of you. Other racers take note on belts, blades and belt adjusting !

And Walter, the Etzold book engine numbers show "ending" numbers that take my engine number out of the equation. I wonder if he just goofed or missed something?

Since your info is from a genuine VW publication, I will now consider my post 61-65 replacement case as one fitted to a late 55, early 56 factory rebuilt engine.

Thanx so much!

Burly

Beetspeed Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:26 am

To add to the 1960-1965 36hp information, I thought to measure the exhaust ports of my '65 engine and I could not find any difference in exhaust port diameter.. :?

'65 36hp engine as pictured above, never disassembled afaik: about 29.75mm bore (29.5-30.0)


My '58 very complete and original engine (never taken apart either): 29.8mm (also between 29.5 and 30mm on several parts of the port)


Both engines:

36hplandspeedracer Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:56 pm

Thanx Walter, I think you have provided some very substantial info for 36hp Challenge reference. Your effort is appreciated!

Burly



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