TheSamba.com :: View topic - Engine Won't Start After Installing Electronic Ignition

Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:26 am

Wildthings, we just tried pulling the center coil wire out of the dizzy cap and holding it near the crankcase, next to the oil pressure switch. My friend turned over the engine, but no spark at all jumping from the coil wire to the case.

Was this a good enough ground spot? And if so, with no spark, do I need a new coil?

Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:58 am

Did you check that your distributor shaft was actually turning as you did this? No turn no spark even if everything else is right.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:08 am

No spark from the coil wire?

OK - you need only a few things to get a spark from the coil. Check in the following order:

1) Power to the coil. Should measure +12 volts (or battery voltage, whatever that is). Check it.

2) A functional condenser. Must not be shorted, leaky, or otherwise messed up. Easiest to check for shorts with an ohmmeter, should measure around 4 uf if you have a capacitance meter, otherwise substitute in a new one.

3) Operating points. Must open and close (have proper gap). Check with a test light in place of the coil (turn the engine - test light should go on and off).

4) A good high voltage coil wire. Measure with an ohmmeter. Should be zero ohms (solid wire).

5) A functional coil, without internal shorts. Easiest to check by substituting a known good one.

One or more of the above must be bad for you to get no spark from the HV coil wire to ground.

For purposes of testing, disconnect ALL other wires going to the coil. After you successfully get a spark, reconnect them and see if they change anything.

Personally, I'd get the system working with the points first, then mess with the electronic unit. Easiest to debug the electronic unit on the bench, with a spare coil and distributor.

----

Now to the electronic ignition - connect up on the bench as follows (Pertronix):

- battery '+' to coil terminal #15, and to RED wire from distributor
- BLACK wire from distributor to coil terminal #1
- battery '-' to distributor body
- Coil HV wire to 1/2" gap from battery '-' terminal

Spin the distributor. You should get sparks at the gap. If not, wire a (small) test light across the coil (terminal 15 to 1). The light should go on/off as you spin the distributor.

For reference, here's how the electronic ignitor unit works:

- the red wire provides (low current) power to the internals of the electronic unit.
- the mounting of the unit to the distributor provides the (high current) ground connection.
- the black wire switches the (high) current flowing through the coil on and off to ground to create the spark (like with points, when the current turns off).

Reversing the red and black wire to the ignitor (or more specifically, connecting the black ignitor wire to the wrong thing) is instantly fatal to it - smokes the power transistor tied to the black wire because it tries to pull the battery '+' terminal to ground. Battery wins.

The normal resistance of a stock coil primary winding is adequate for the electronic ignition.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:51 pm

009s are only supposed to have one spring in there.

I was working on once and the condensor was actually shorting out against the distributor case in the hole that the points wire goes through.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:01 pm

I do appreciate all the help, everyone. But I have to be honest a lot of the testing tips (voltage, coil spark, points/condenser, etc.) are going over my head and I don't really have the tools or know how to test properly.

My main thing that is confusing me to hell and back is the bus was running perfectly fine yesterday morning before this all happened. I picked up the electronic ignition kit from the store and drove home in the bus. Simply pulled out the dizzy, removed the points & condenser, installed the electronic ignition and put the dizzy back in the bus. Plugged the black wire from the electronic ignition into the negative side of the coil. I wasn't sure which wire to pull off the positive side of the coil to open a space for the electronic ignition red wire.

I pulled what ended up being the ignition/power wire (I know stupid, but I couldn't figure exactly what it was based off the Bentley wiring diagram), plugged in the new red electronic ignition wire and tried to start the engine. Just got the starter turning over the crank. Then I reattached the ignition/power wire and pulled the carb's auto choke wire and plugged in the new red electronic ignition wire. The engine fired up for a second, sputtered and died. Tried this a couple more times with the same result.

At this point, what do you guys think was going on?

Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:31 pm

Since I didn't see it mentioned I thought I'd bring this up. Are you sure you correctly set your points gap (dwell)? Should be .016" at the highest point on the distributor shaft lobe.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:46 pm

Quote: At this point, what do you guys think was going on?

Possibilities:

- distributor didn't index back into its drive slot properly. If the distributor went all the way back down into its hole, then this is unlikely.

- distributor is in the wrong position relative to its original one. If you removed the distributor by removing the 13mm nut and lifting the distributor and its mounting bracket as a unit, then this too is unlikely.

- spacing between the ignitor unit and the rotor is somehow wrong, resulting in poor triggering.

- engine is flooded from all the cranking without power going to the coil / ignitor

- some other screw-up / miswire / hose getting knocked off / etc. that we can't see or guess about without pics.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:05 pm

Thanks, Telford. Here are my thoughts on the possibilities:

- distributor didn't index back into its drive slot properly. If the distributor went all the way back down into its hole, then this is unlikely.

I'm 100% positive the distributor went all the way into the hole. The timing clamp bottomed out on the crankcase and the rotor moved as it should when I rotated the crank pulley by hand.

- spacing between the ignitor unit and the rotor is somehow wrong, resulting in poor triggering.

The electronic ignition kit I bought is an EMPI Accufire. It basically consists of the ignition module and a round plastic disc with embedded magnets that you push down over the distributor shaft. This spins with the shaft and rotor after it is reattached. Could there be an issue spacing here?

- engine is flooded from all the cranking without power going to the coil / ignitor

This is one of my main thoughts. When I first tried cranking yesterday, I was pumping the pedal quite a bit hoping the engine would fire up. I'm sure I flooded the engine. It sat overnight and I went back to experimenting today, but didn't use much pedal. Could it have still flooded again?

- some other screw-up / miswire / hose getting knocked off / etc. that we can't see or guess about without pics.

My only other theories are the coil or distributor have just gone bad. The coil does show power on both positive and negative when I have the key turned. But I'm getting no spark when I pull the center coil wire from the distributor and put it close to a ground while cranking. I did take it down to my FLAPS and they tested with some sort of meter and compared it to a brand new Bosch coil. I'm not sure what exactly he was testing because neither coil was attached to any sort of power that I could see. Is there a chance it could "test" just fine but not be able to send any spark to the distributor when installed back in the bus?

And both the FLAPS and another guy they recommended I show it said the distributor looked to be fine. Although the other guy didn't have many kind words for the electronic ignition setup. He just doesn't like them in general apparently.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:12 pm

Fuel related problem.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:14 pm

Quote: [b]The electronic ignition kit I bought is an EMPI Accufire.
Not familiar with this unit - can't advise.
[edit] From the downloaded datasheet, looks like the rotor to pickup clearance needs to be 0.060" for proper triggering. Might check it.

Quote: Could it have still flooded again?
Not likely - but the plugs could be wet. Pull an easy one and inspect.

Quote: I did take it down to my FLAPS and they tested with some sort of meter and compared it to a brand new Bosch coil. I'm not sure what exactly he was testing because neither coil was attached to any sort of power that I could see. Is there a chance it could "test" just fine but not be able to send any spark to the distributor when installed back in the bus?
An ohmmeter will tell you if the coil is bad - but it won't tell you if it is good. Substitution will.

Quote: And both the FLAPS and another guy they recommended I show it said the distributor looked to be fine. Although the other guy didn't have many kind words for the electronic ignition setup. He just doesn't like them in general apparently.
Many people don't, as it is unnecessary - the points work fine. Electronic does hold a tune longer as nothing wears very fast, and is thus convenient if you don't care to do points maintenance.

How about (added):

- distributor is in the wrong position relative to its original one. If you removed the distributor by removing the 13mm nut and lifting the distributor and its mounting bracket as a unit, then this too is unlikely.

Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:20 pm

Did you remove the wires from the cap while you had the dizzy out? If you got them back in 180° out then your engine will not start and may not even sputter or backfire.

Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:47 am

Wildthings, when I originally removed the dizzy I didn't mess with any of the cap wires. I did swap them around this morning, 1 to 3 and 2 to 4, just to confirm I'm not 180 out. Still no go.

Desertbusman, I'll pull the line off the carb that comes up from the pump and turn the crank pulley to see if any gas comes out the line. I did check my fuel filter under the bus and notice it has some gunk in it. I'll probably go ahead and replace soon.

Telford, every I have removed the dizzy I've taken out the entire assembly including mounting bracket. Originally I made sure the timing clamp nut was tight, but have since moved the timing all over the place to try to get it to start. No idea where exact timing is now. I've heard that you can still get a rough idea by timing an electronic ignition statically. My problem is the test light just stays lit up like a Christmas tree no matter how much I turn the dizzy for timing. And the opposite was happening when I had the points in condenser in, the test light would never light up. I've timed statically before with no problem.

I've got no spark from the coil while cranking so I'm going to pick up a new coil today. Hopefully that will be the issue and if not at least I've eliminated that variable.

Thanks everyone for you help! I'll report back with a status update soon.

Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:38 am

Quote: Telford, every I have removed the dizzy I've taken out the entire assembly including mounting bracket. Originally I made sure the timing clamp nut was tight, but have since moved the timing all over the place to try to get it to start. No idea where exact timing is now. I've heard that you can still get a rough idea by timing an electronic ignition statically. My problem is the test light just stays lit up like a Christmas tree no matter how much I turn the dizzy for timing.
I don't think you can time statically with electronic ignition as the controller only pulses the coil 'off' as the pickup tells it to. You're going to have to do this the hard way: position the engine so it's at TDC on compression of cylinder #1, then position the distributor such that the rotor is pointing to #1 plug, and the magnet on the sub-rotor is passing over the appropriate spot on the electronic unit.

Quote: And the opposite was happening when I had the points in condenser in, the test light would never light up. I've timed statically before with no problem.
This is troubling, as getting points to work should be straight-forward. How is the test light connected? Points to ground, or points to battery (e.g. across the coil)? I'm assuming that it's the first method, which means that the points never open, or there's a short in the green condenser wire somewhere (the condenser itself, or the connection where the terminal passes through the distributor body.) Personally, I'd debug this first, get the engine running again, then go from there.

Quote: I've got no spark from the coil while cranking so I'm going to pick up a new coil today. Hopefully that will be the issue and if not at least I've eliminated that variable.
Before you do that, find out why the test light won't light with points. Might save you the price of a coil...

Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:51 am

You still haven't said if you set the points gap correctly.
If it was me I'd put the mechanical points back in, make sure they're set at exactly .016", statically time it and see what happens. Maybe even get a new set of points and condenser, they're cheaper than a coil. :)

Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:31 am

VWJJames wrote: Desertbusman, I'll pull the line off the carb that comes up from the pump and turn the crank pulley to see if any gas comes out the line. I wasn't meaning that as much as determining if it's either flooded or dry. At this point it's very possibly flooded. If somehow it has remained dry then a table spoon of gas down the carb should have it running for a few seconds. Didn't you say it did start and run for just a bit?

Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:24 pm

Update***

Replaced the coil, still no go.

Finally quit beating my head against the wall and had the bus towed to my mechanic yesterday afternoon. Told him everything I had done and checked, he was stumped, too. So he calls me this morning and says they swapped out the electronic ignition I installed with another one and the engine fired right up!

FAULTY BRAND NEW OUTADABOX ELECTRONIC IGNITION, that's all it was!

So all was good and I drove home smiling ear to ear. As soon as I turned onto the road to my street, engine dies and I coast. I crank up while coasting and it dies again. So I coast a quarter mile downhill, take a left on my street and coast right to my front door.

Fuel pump! Replaced it. The world makes sense again.

Thanks everyone for your advice and tips. I have a sneaky suspicion the damn fuel pump had a hand in starting this whole charade with the sloppy starts and lack of pep during acceleration which led to adjusting the valves, messing with the carb, installing electronic ignition, and on and on.

Now I have a new coil, electronic ignition setup, fuel pump and retuned carb. Yeah, thanks old fuel pump!

Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:00 pm

Isn't it fun when multiple problems all bite you in the butt at the same time.

Doesn't explain why you didn't get any spark after reinstalling the points...

Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:08 pm

Eating my words. I'm broke down right now on a side street about a mile from home. Engine died exactly like last time and after what seems to be a similar duration of driving. My thought now is that the wiring or a connection is heating up while driving and becoming faulty. Anything in particular I should look for?

Or could it be something with the new electronic ignition or Bosch Blue Coil (Brazillian) that i installed not working well together when they get hot?

Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:15 pm

VWJJames wrote: Eating my words. I'm broke down right now on a side street about a mile from home. Engine died exactly like last time and after what seems to be a similar duration of driving. My thought now is that the wiring or a connection is heating up while driving and becoming faulty. Anything in particular I should look for?

Or could it be something with the new electronic ignition or Bosch Blue Coil (Brazilian) that i installed not working well together when they get hot?
That coil should work fine with the electronic ignition.

- check for +12 on the ignition red wire.
- if it's there, then something is likely eating ignition modules, most likely either bad quality control on the modules, or something is shorting the black wire to +12 battery voltage.
- as a backup test, connect a small test light across the coil, terminals 15 to 1, and see if it pulses while cranking. If it's solid (either on or off), you've chewed up another module.

Best guess...

Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:26 pm

I'll do the test light checks as soon as I get home. Could this be an issue with timing? It seemed to run pretty smooth for most of the 15-20 minute ride. But, towards the end when shifting accelerating in 2nd it kind of bogged. Then when the engine crapped out I got a nice backfire.