TheSamba.com :: View topic

Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:27 pm

can someone go into detail, ive had a new voltage regulator installed, and its only 6 months old, I dont drive my bug around alot I would say since ive installed it, ive droven around not even 1000 miles,? this is the 2nd time it happend, the first one was a year ago, it was a solid state, bosch regulator, and then the one that just burn out was an smp points style regulator, how did they both go bad in 1 year, I dont drive my 1970 bug that much, my generator and battery both seem fine, so can some one go technical an explain why 2 new regulators, solid state or points would go bad? the wires all seem fine, apprently, I dont think they are grouding anywhere. any suggestions, since voltage regulators arnt cheap in price anymore , thanks.

Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:43 pm

In two simple words....... Voltage Spikes.

Caused by.......

Jump starting,
Disconnecting wires while motor is running
Loose / poor electrical connections
BAD GROUND! (Body and/or engine)
Using Alternator as a battery charger instead of full charging a dead battery with a plug in unit. Disconnect battery cables, hook up charger.

Carelessly connecting or unhooking any system test tools.

Not often due to bad alternator/generator

Do you have a lot of add on gadgets with big draw?
Do you have a high output charging unit and a puny stock regulator that can't handle the load?

Again.....Voltage Spikes. You've got something bad in your wiring or you're doing naughty things to your system.

Dave

Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:42 pm

take the cover off and look at the points -- if they are burnt then you might have a bad gen or alt that is causing the reg to turn on or off all the time --
Jerry

Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:51 pm

JerryMCarter1 wrote: take the cover off and look at the points -- if they are burnt then you might have a bad gen or alt that is causing the reg to turn on or off all the time --
Jerry

Jerry, this is what regulators are designed to do and to continue doing for tens if not hundreds of thousands of miles over many years. There is a deeper cause for his failures.
I guess we could always play the China card! Easy scape goat, few arguments!

It would be nice to know a lot more about his car, modifications, battery condition and stability, wiring issues, etc etc etc.

Dave

Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:50 pm

"...can some one go technical an explain..."

I can give you my two cents and opinion on an electro-mechanical regulator which may very well be wrong.

An alternators regulator controls output by varying or eliminating current to the rotor/field (maybe 8 amps max). The generators regulator has to deal with regulating the field strength and output through the generators output.

Unlike the alternator, the generator self-excites due to residual magnetism in the field poles (it always wants to produce). The regulators cutout coil makes and the generator, regulator and battery connect. Depending on the cars current demand, the voltage coil will vibrate and/or route output over a resistive coil (ni-chrome wire) to the fields to reduce output.

When you're traveling down the highway with a full battery and only a 3-4 amps ignition coil load, the resistive coil/regulator are hot trying to reduce output the generator wants to make. If the regulators output is 14.5 volts or higher it works even harder as it over-charges the battery.

If you do a lot of hi-speed traveling, turn on your lights to provide an extra load for the generators output. The continuous demand should make your regulators job easier and extend its life. With prolonged low-speeds and load, you have the opposite problem, too little output.

Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:26 am

Dave if there is a capacitor going bad when rectifying the dc it can tell the regulator to turn on and off-- maybe hundreds of time per minute-- this means the points are being used like a car that has run for several years.
The first time I had this problem was with an old car many years ago - I have looked for this often but it only happens once in awhile.
For the poster - again take a look at the points themselves
Jerry

Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:05 pm

djkeev wrote: In two simple words....... Voltage Spikes.

Caused by.......

Jump starting,
Disconnecting wires while motor is running
Loose / poor electrical connections
BAD GROUND! (Body and/or engine)
Using Alternator as a battery charger instead of full charging a dead battery with a plug in unit. Disconnect battery cables, hook up charger.

Carelessly connecting or unhooking any system test tools.

Not often due to bad alternator/generator

Do you have a lot of add on gadgets with big draw?
Do you have a high output charging unit and a puny stock regulator that can't handle the load?

Again.....Voltage Spikes. You've got something bad in your wiring or you're doing naughty things to your system.

Dave

thanks everyone for your inputs, I have not jumped started the car, one time I forgot to turn off the radio, so it drain the battery, but I used a battery charger to charge the battery again.,

my electrical connections seem fine, I will double check again, but when I check it out yesterday them seem fine,

what ground are you taking about the one that goes on the battery? or the ground for the voltage regulator?

the only thing I have plug in would be the radio, but most of the time I have it turn off, I even installed a separate kill switch, to make sure it doesnt get power, when I dont want it to. but the rest is pretty much original nothing more, I would notice my lights flicker a little bit a night, before the volt regulator stop chargeing,

and before it stop charging, I turn off the key and the gen light stayed on, according to the bentley manual the points are burned, but they seem fine, they do stick though? why do they stick?

Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:06 pm

JerryMCarter1 wrote: take the cover off and look at the points -- if they are burnt then you might have a bad gen or alt that is causing the reg to turn on or off all the time --
Jerry

Ill will check this again to, I will take out the the regulator and take alook at it out side the car.

Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:13 pm

goober wrote: "...can some one go technical an explain..."

I can give you my two cents and opinion on an electro-mechanical regulator which may very well be wrong.

An alternators regulator controls output by varying or eliminating current to the rotor/field (maybe 8 amps max). The generators regulator has to deal with regulating the field strength and output through the generators output.

Unlike the alternator, the generator self-excites due to residual magnetism in the field poles (it always wants to produce). The regulators cutout coil makes and the generator, regulator and battery connect. Depending on the cars current demand, the voltage coil will vibrate and/or route output over a resistive coil (ni-chrome wire) to the fields to reduce output.

When you're traveling down the highway with a full battery and only a 3-4 amps ignition coil load, the resistive coil/regulator are hot trying to reduce output the generator wants to make. If the regulators output is 14.5 volts or higher it works even harder as it over-charges the battery.

If you do a lot of hi-speed traveling, turn on your lights to provide an extra load for the generators output. The continuous demand should make your regulators job easier and extend its life. With prolonged low-speeds and load, you have the opposite problem, too little output.

cool I had no idea, I rarely get on the highway, if at all , I think in the last year I never even got on the freeway, and yes, I never go more than 45mph here in the city, because mainly I use this car to go to the grocery store or do errands, when i first got this points style regulator, the volt reading would always be around 13.1 to 13.5, if I turn on the lights at night it would be 12.6 - 12.8 was that normal? and I could here noise the points style regulator makes, like I said if I had the radio on it would not drain anything, it would go from 13.1 to 13.0, and when I had the electronic bosch state ones, it did the battery, it over charged my battery and it fried it, so a year ago I had to not only change the volt reg but the battery.

Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:16 pm

djkeev wrote: JerryMCarter1 wrote: take the cover off and look at the points -- if they are burnt then you might have a bad gen or alt that is causing the reg to turn on or off all the time --
Jerry

Jerry, this is what regulators are designed to do and to continue doing for tens if not hundreds of thousands of miles over many years. There is a deeper cause for his failures.
I guess we could always play the China card! Easy scape goat, few arguments!

It would be nice to know a lot more about his car, modifications, battery condition and stability, wiring issues, etc etc etc.

Dave

yes I know what you mean about the china parts, before I got better parts the car would break down for almost all reasons, but who knows, the smp regulator that wont work right now supposed is made here in the usa, but hey who knows maybe they just switch the box, because on the regulator it self it has nothing on it, and the bosch one I had before that said made in mexico, maybe I got a defective one,

can anyone tell me how long a volt reg should last if everything is running good?

Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:16 pm

"...12.6 - 12.8 was that normal?"

It seems low to me.

I adjust my regulator at about 2200 rpm (second step of the fast idle cam) with the positive battery cable disconnected, a meter across the two battery cables and all power off (only the ignition coil).

By increasing or decreasing the spring tension on the voltage (fine wire) coil of the regulator you can vary the output voltage. If I'm going to be driving mainly at hi-speeds for prolonged periods I'll set the output to 13.6-13.7 volts. If I'm mainly driving at low-speeds for prolonged periods I'll set the output to 14.3-14.4 volts. Otherwise I have the output set to about 13.9-14.0 volts.

The cutout (thick wire) coil I set with enough spring tension to positively break when the engine stops yet without so much tension that it won't positively make when the engine starts. The cutout disconnects the battery from the generator.

Every couple of years I remove the regulator and clean the contacts with 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper (realign if need be) and readjust the output. My current regulator on my '69 daily-driver is a cheap Taiwanese made regulator I purchased from Whitney in 1994.

I'm not sure if all this is by the book, but it works for me.

Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:20 pm

100,000 -- maybe 25 years
Jerry

Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:42 am

Sticking points i've found not just on vw's but all the brand 'x' ones as they all work the same, was a small pitting starting and the raised spike part sticking to other contact, using a 'ign point file' for this purpose gets it flat again.Constant open/closing also has some arcing involved, burns down the point in time with a few stickers thrown in.

Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:01 am

This is great info about point style voltage regulators but we are off track.

In two years he has had three regulators go bad.

The "original"
The solid state replacement
The mechanical replacement

He is about to put regulator #4 into the car.

People, THIS IS NOT NORMAL!

One regulator should last for decades. He's got a problem which is causing regulators of all types and brands to go bad.

It's not the battery, it's new since the problem started.

Lets start again........ Something is damaging the Regulators!

Check, clean, tighten all connections to the generator,
Oh, by the way,

Do you have a generator or an alternator?

Clean the ground cable to the transaxle nose cone and the mount on the body.
Clean the ground cable at the battery and to the body.

Get a meter and see what output the charging device is putting out. Consider getting a dash charging meter and hook it up to watch what happens a you drive.

Dave

Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:32 am

I re-read from the top, nowhere did he mention polarizing the gen after reg replacement, i do know it's not always required but times are if not u don't u will get reg problems. Miy very frw times doing this cured this problem, never ran one enuf to cause a burn out of reg before i polarized it,newbie to vw's back then , was one of the 'learning' processes.

Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:42 am

I am thinking that the reg doesn't match the gen

Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:56 am

JerryMCarter1 wrote: I am thinking that the reg doesn't match the gen

Sadly the term "generator" is often used interchangeably with alternator simply meaning "charging device"

Does he have a generator or an alternator? 2 different animals.

Dave

Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:02 pm

A '70 in 1st post so i assssumed it wuz to be a generator, updated possible............

Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:43 pm

"my generator and battery both seem fine"

Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:03 pm

djkeev wrote: This is great info about point style voltage regulators but we are off track.

In two years he has had three regulators go bad.

The "original"
The solid state replacement
The mechanical replacement

He is about to put regulator #4 into the car.

People, THIS IS NOT NORMAL!

One regulator should last for decades. He's got a problem which is causing regulators of all types and brands to go bad.

It's not the battery, it's new since the problem started.

Lets start again........ Something is damaging the Regulators!

Check, clean, tighten all connections to the generator,
Oh, by the way,

Do you have a generator or an alternator?

Clean the ground cable to the transaxle nose cone and the mount on the body.
Clean the ground cable at the battery and to the body.

Get a meter and see what output the charging device is putting out. Consider getting a dash charging meter and hook it up to watch what happens a you drive.

Dave

okay I have a generator, okay so today I went and got another points sytle regulator, now the reading on it gives me 14.4 to almost 15. I know thats not good, so I had to turn on the lights and it went down to 14.3, but it started to smoke, I dont think this is normal, why would it smoke? should I drive with my lights on for now? and I agree I should not be going thru volt regs that fast, especially since I dont drive the car alot, does anyone know where I can find a volt reg diagram? ive never messed with the wires, but it could be the po before me did so I have to make sure,