TheSamba.com :: View topic - Semaphore to Semaphore Replacement Wiring

Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:05 pm

I hope someone can help. I decided to go the non-traditional route and install a nice set of NOS semaphore replacements (elephant ears) on my 54.

When you remove the semaphores there are two wires on each side; a blue one which runs to the speedo for the indicator light and a black-striped wire to provide power from the turn signal switch.

My semaphore replacements only have one terminal, which goes to the light bulb. Pretty easy to make the lights work by connecting each black-striped wire to this terminal...now the problem

What do you connect the blue wire for speedometer indicator to? I know you don't connect it to the same terminal as the black-striped wire....this causes a loop and both turn signals come on

I want to keep the indicator light functioning, but what would you connect it to?

Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:58 pm

Where did you find these semaphores? Are they reproduction? Don't understand how they only have one terminal?

Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:47 am

Hmm... one wire runs the lights from the indicator and the other runs the solenoid to swap out the semaphores to use 'elephant ear' indicators I would imagine you simply just use both wires then on one terminal as they are both positive and driven by flipping the turn signal switch.

Worst case scenario is you pop a 10 cent fuse if not...

Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:11 am

My first thought was to connect the two wires together, but this creates a loop between the two turn signals.

You see, the two blue wires connect together at the speedo, so if you connect the blue to the black-striped, when you turn on the signals they both come on. Basically your sending power through the blue wire on one side, to the speedo connection, which is shared with the other side...both lights work regardless of which direction you flip the switch.

What really bugs me is that with the blue indicator wire tied to the signal power wire, the dang indicator light on the speedo comes on without even flipping the signal switch. When you flip the switch, the signals come on, but the indicator goes off! How does that work??? the blue wires should have zero power running to them until you flip the signal switch.

I can easily make the signals work properly, but this dang indicator light is going to kill me

Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:13 am

CUBA wrote: Where did you find these semaphores? Are they reproduction? Don't understand how they only have one terminal?

They are not semphores, they are semaphore replacements...basically are regular turn signal light that mounts where the semaphores were...

Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:19 am

So looking at the later model (early 60's VW) wiring diagram, I guess I need to install a dang turn signal relay to make the indicator work?

Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:46 am

txoval wrote: So looking at the later model (early 60's VW) wiring diagram, I guess I need to install a dang turn signal relay to make the indicator work?
Yeah sorry my bad I was thinking you already had a flasher in it. So yes it will need a flasher and then a little rewiring on the blue wires to go to the flasher first and then onto the indicator to work as intended...

Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:11 am

Assuming you have the original 3-position bulbholder at the bottom of your speedo, the common terminal there is ignition powered, and the turn signal indicator light needs a GROUND to complete the circuit. It is the same idea as the oil pressure sensor.
Normally with the semaphore, the blue wire gets connected to ground when the spike at the end of the semaphore piston comes down (semaphore arm up)and touches a ground contact.
To get the indicator light to come on properly in your new situation, it needs to see ground when your turnsignal gets power. One way to do this is to use a relay which connects the lamp to ground when energized. If the light must also blink, then it will require a special flasher connection, or you could try using a special two terminal speedo bulb socket that insulates the bulb from the common ignition connection on the 3-position bulbholder.

H.

Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:51 am

Zwitter:

Thank you for the explanation, which makes perfect sense now.

My 54 has the three month only type 1 speedo where the signal indictor is at the top of the speedo, high beam light is at the bottom between the oil and gen light.

I will have to buy the flasher/turn signal relay from WW. I'm just glad there's a simple solution

Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:48 pm

txoval wrote: Zwitter:

Thank you for the explanation, which makes perfect sense now.

My 54 has the three month only type 1 speedo where the signal indictor is at the top of the speedo, high beam light is at the bottom between the oil and gen light.

I will have to buy the flasher/turn signal relay from WW. I'm just glad there's a simple solution

Well hold on. Zwitter is 100% right, BUT, if in your speedo that indicator bulb is grounded to the speedo housing when installed, things get more complicated. Can you post a pic of the backside of the speedo?

Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:20 pm

If I knew how to post pictures I would...the turn signal indicator bulb is right at 12 0'clock on the speedo housing, and the housing is grounded.

I would assume the bulb holder is grounded to the casing

UPDATE:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=923657

Here is a pic of my speedo...see the bulb at the bottom (bottom of pic, but actually top of speedo), with the ground lug, that is the indicator bulb holder

Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:30 pm

Interesting beast, that 3 month only '54 speedo. That turn signal bulb looks to have two terminals instead of just the normal one on the bulbholder, the casing being ground. If you can't tell just by looking at it, use an ohmeter or test light to confirm that the two screw terminals for that bulb are isolated from the main housing. If so, it is similar to a normal speedo, and what I wrote should be correct.

Yep, us electrical engineers have to keep each other on the ball, right JH?

If this weird 54 speedo is the way I think it is, then the 3-position bulbholder at the botton is also a one-off....with the middle position NOT connected to ignition, but instead picking up a ground nearby.

Neat stuff....wonder why VW did that experiment.

Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:02 am

Zwitter, you are correct on the bottom three as well...

How do I perform the test you mentioned? I do have a voltmeter...

Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:01 am

If you have a multimeter with settings for continuity or ohms, just touch one test probe on the speedo housing, and the other on each of the two bulb screw terminals in turn. If you only get open circuit readings, then that bulb socket is isolated from the housing ground.

I suspect that this is the case, because otherwise there would be only one screw terminal there, the housing being ground. I checked a 1959 Ghia speedo this morning and the turn indicator at the top has two terminals, and they are isolated from the housing ground. You can actually see a black plastic insulator at the base of this special bulbholder. The high beam indicator, at the center bottom, is grounded through a small metal strip riveted to the housing, and bulb holder in that position is NOT connected to ignition +6V. So, this Ghia speedo is just like yours.

If you don't have a multimeter or ohm-meter, it's probably easier to just throw together and use a small continuity test light (A small battery in series with a test bulb of same voltage, test leads from the free ends).

Cheers,
H

Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:33 pm

If I buy the WW turn signal flasher relay, will this work either way? Couldn't I just remove the ground wire on the indicator bulb housing and use the ground on the relay switch?

Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:17 pm

I am not familiar with the WW flashers. If they have 3 terminals marked +15, 54, and K, then it should work. Splice it in to the line connected to the common terminal of the turn signal switch. Connect +15 to ignition, connect 54 to the common terminal on your turn signal switch, and connect the K terminal to where the blue wires used to attach on your (isolated) indicator bulb at the top of your speedo. The other terminal for the indicator bulb would remain connected to +15 ignition.

A "K" terminal provides a pulsed ground connection, which is what you want.

Make sense?

Cheers,
H

Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:06 pm

Just an update, bought the $12 flasher unit from Wolfsburg West, easy install and everything works great.

Mon Jul 08, 2024 5:15 am

Zwitterkafer wrote: I am not familiar with the WW flashers. If they have 3 terminals marked +15, 54, and K, then it should work. Splice it in to the line connected to the common terminal of the turn signal switch. Connect +15 to ignition, connect 54 to the common terminal on your turn signal switch, and connect the K terminal to where the blue wires used to attach on your (isolated) indicator bulb at the top of your speedo. The other terminal for the indicator bulb would remain connected to +15 ignition.

A "K" terminal provides a pulsed ground connection, which is what you want.

Make sense?

Cheers,
H

I am getting to install a set of Hella semaphore replacement on my 57 european oval. I have the same question with TXOVAL. Did i understand what Zwitter mentioned how to get the flasher unit connected as drawn in the diagram? Would i left the blue wires unconnected at the semaphore slot?

If TXOVAL happen to see this post, would you mind to share your connection with WW flasher relay?

While WW flasher is a simple fix, i would like to find out if i could make use of the flashers i have. Would it be possible with below terminals no.? I am using 57 speedometer with 3 bulb holders at the bottom. Not sure i need to ground it thru the flasher unit.

From the left, with terminal no
1) 15X, 54L
2) -31, 49a (S), +43
3) +15, S54
4) +15, -31, S54

Fri Jul 12, 2024 4:18 pm

Just noticed this post by accident! Yes, your drawing is correct and it should work with a flasher that has a K output. The semaphore blue wires should indeed be disconnected.

Key point: The K terminal provides a pulse train signal that alternates between "open circuit" and "ground". So whenever the pulse train from K goes to "ground", then the flasher bulb will be on, since power (ignition 15) is provided to the other side of the bulb by the common strip on the typical 3-bulb carrier at the bottom of the speedo.