TheSamba.com :: View topic

Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:30 pm

I think the issue with the heavy load on a key ring causes premature wear on the tumbler, which in turn can cause the post that turns the actual switch to cock at an angle that then...well, you get the idea. At least, this is my understanding of how the MB units fail. We were replacing all sorts of VW ignition switches on fairly new rigs twenty years ago when I was wrenching on them

Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:35 pm

I understand the function of the lock cylinder and ignition switch and their respective wear patterns perfectly.

Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:20 pm

Ok, just positing a theory based upon anecdotal evidence. Seems perfectly plausible. In general, I don't think it's a good idea to load up a keychain for a variety of reasons.

Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:32 pm

I am with Andrew on this one. The play in between the lock section and the switch is too great for barrel movement to effect the switch. That said I tell people to down size their key rings all the time because of the damage it does to locks and trims. The rattle alone is enough to drive me mad. The problem with the switch is that vw saw it fit to raid the parts bin for an ign switch for the t3. Then they ran headlight and starter current through it. They should have either designed a new switch or fitted relays.

Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:43 pm

I have certainly never suggested that it is a good idea to have a heavy key chain or even that it will not cause other issues aside from the failure of the electronic switch.

Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:36 pm

I think this is the kit I used after replacing 2 switches in 2 years. no problems since. I bought mine from Springfield German,not BD.

https://www.busdepot.com/wr1

Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:49 pm

I am going to add the kit made by Jay Brown - [email protected]

It looks nicer than the one pictured and he provides support free of charge to people on this bbs.

Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:54 pm

thatvwbusguy wrote: Here is the procedure to crank the starter via the ignition switch socket. I copied this from a post a while back and can't remember who originally wrote it at this point. Anyway, here goes.......

Super helpful. I was stuck in a gas station forecourt on christmas eve with a nostart but was able to roll start on the gentlest of inclines. I'll keep this handy but I have already ordered a new starter switch as I suspect (hope?) that's where the problem is. It started fine when I got it home and a couple of times since which is why I suspect the switch. Batteries are good and the starter cranked with alacrity after that little misadventure.

Thu May 28, 2020 8:13 pm

thatvwbusguy wrote: Here is the procedure to crank the starter via the ignition switch socket. I copied this from a post a while back and can't remember who originally wrote it at this point. Anyway, here goes.......

Ignition Switch Bypass - Jumper Wire Starting Method:

Remove the plastic cover from the steering column and pull the black socket off the bottom of the ignition switch.

Insert a jumper wire between the large red wire and the solid black wire (a bent paper clip works well, but will get hot, so be careful). You should hear the fuel pump run at this point.

If you hear the fuel pump, leave the first jumper (large red to black) in place and insert another jumper wire between the large red wire and the red/white wire. This is your starter wire.

The engine should turn over at this point. If the engine starts, remove the big red to red/white jumper wire immediately. If you don't remove this jumper, the starter will continue to run just like holding the key in the start position.

This is essentially how to hotwire a Vanagon, but since the ignition steering lock is still in place, you can easily defeat any would be Vanagon heist by leaving the wheels turned into the curb when you park...

This just got me off the side of the road after replacing a starter that obviously wasn’t bad. Many thanks to the community! Love ya guys!

Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:36 pm

?Waldo? wrote: I do not believe that extra weight can transfer to damaging the switch itself.

Agreed - keyfob weight is unlikely to fail the switch until the cylinder gets really worn out & sloppy. The engagement being at the far end, it would have to be real sloppy. In which case you could then side-load the key in the slop and thus activate the failure mode upon command.

—————————

Currently I’m having trouble with the Key-in power function of my ign switch.
Sometimes it turns the radio on, draining the battery (key OUT).
Then it disconnects.
Doing the phantom thing & really p***ing me off.
I discovered this upon removing the switch but then plugging it back in.
Normally you have to push the center plunger (against a spring) but just wiggling it was turning the radio on/off.

Its kinda wonderful to discover tha cause of a phantom load.

So I replaced the switch with an unknown brand.
The key-in function of the new switch was similarly non-functional so I’m back to square1.

I opened up both switches and the OEM is substantially more heavy-duty inside, than its modern replacement.
I’m inclined to clean & lubricate the OEM switch and put it back in.

——————- EDIT ————-

The lock-cylinder slop on my 210,000 mile van definitely causes intermittent connection of the key-in power. Im watching my radio power up and power down in response to wiggling the key cylinder. So if I had a seat buzzer, wiggling the key,
(and this husband’s tale of the wife’s heavy key ring etc) would be proven by the intermittent seatbelt buzzer, which I bet some VW techs observed.

So…. Sideload on the key can definitely affect some aspects of the Vanagons key switch. I don’t know if it affects the other switch functions.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:34 am

Odd this topic popped up right when I'm in the process of eliminating the OG ignition switch. However, long ago I relayed everything so the ignition switch saw only coil currents.

This is where I'm currently headed.

The look I'm after. Grew up with cars of this era and I'm also a boat builder--was a boat builder, so........

There are really cool vintage ignition switches with lever operation, One is barely visible in the pic above just to the left of the steering wheel. But they tend to be in poor condition or blindingly expensive. So have decided to go with chrome pull knobs for all switches...........except the ignition.

There have been a bunch of posts about thefts and kill switches that have made a lot of sense.

So this is the way I will start my car.
The key will remain in the OG switch in the on position to unlock the steering column. I need the key anyway for the gas cap--well sorta--and for the door locks. However, it will have no power going to it unless later on I decide I need a momentary switch for something and can use the starter position for that.

I have an unused cruise control which will never get fixed or upgraded. Thus, turn on slide switch cruise control which will activate a relay and give power to what the ignition switch normally provided--all 15 current path loads. Then make a right turn signal with the stalk which will lock the fuel pump relay ground interuptor. Then push the momentary button at the end of the stalk which was for increasing speed? This will activate the start relay. Let's see a thief figure that one out. I'll have a note I can show for my mechanic and others..

Yes, I realize that I will lose the load interruption feature, but I never start my car with headlights, fans or any of the other loads that handles anyway. I could relay that as well, but don't think it's worth the effort unless someone tells me differently.

Duncan

Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:27 am

@Sodo, I've had two failures of the key-in switch in the last year. One was with a switch that was marked Germany and may have been 30 years old, the other with a recent replacement switch bought at one of our vendors.

I haven't jiggled the key to see if that activated the key-in switch but I have a lightweight key-chain (who knows if the PO had a tactical flashlight, bear spray and a leatherman hanging from their key chain).

@Duncan, as always, I love hearing news of your latest Vanagon Shenanigans. :lol:

Wed Aug 18, 2021 11:08 am

Jim--Relay the loads and you will never have a failure again.

And by the way, I think it spelled Vanagon Shenanigons. A good name for an adventure meet.

Duncan

Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:33 pm

Duncan, agreed on the relays for circuits with heavy loads.

The key-in switch that Sodo and I are referring to carries a small load for the seat belt (?) buzzer and 12v to turn on the radio if modded this way. The failure is that the plunger that is depressed and closes the circuit when the key is inserted (not turned, just inserted) gets grumpy and sticks, thus not always closing or opening the circuit as expected.

This circuit can be used to power the radio when the key is inserted and power it off when the key is removed and is highly subject to personal preferences on how the radio should be enabled: key-in? key-on? always-on regardless of key?

Vanagon-Shananagons? :lol:

Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:16 pm

I had a T3 with that feature and hated it. As you said, personal preferences. What I have now is a toggle switch so the radio can be off all the time, on with ignition or on all the time. That's the one that shows just to the right of the horn button in the pic below. As for seat belt buzzers? Never had a T3 where they worked. That's fine by me as the last thing I need is mechanical equipment telling me what to do such as the washing machine or refrigerator. As it is, there is plenty around here telling me what to do. Pay bills, guilt about kids birthday presents and the brain in the middle of the night that won't turn off. If truth be known, there is a bit of losing control. I'm telling myself to finish up some of the simultaneous projects which are partially done.

They all work, but are hardly what I want to show my friends

If I get stopped, I don't wont to wind up in jail. Nothing illegal I know about, but a dash like this won't help the cop feel charitable. Car drives just fine and easy to monitor the brake fluid level.

Duncan

Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:56 pm

Is the intermittent "key in" power described a result of wear in the Ignition Lock Cylinder, OR the ignition switch contacts?

I'm asking as I am pilot testing a kill switch on the Fuel Pump that uses Key In power to a latching relay. I have noticed that IF one wiggles the ignition key, or otherwise moves the key, once it's inserted, that key in power can be lost.

Not a good situation IF your Fuel pump ground is dependent on it. I am considering using Key On power IF Key In is not reliable BUT am interested in seeing IF the key In power issue can possibly be improved by cleaning or lubricating the contacts / parts.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:40 pm

Sodo seems to be finding the lock cylinder wiggling is the issue. In my case it was definitely the plunger getting stuck as I could replicate it on the bench with the switch alone.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 11:05 pm

Im concerned that key-in power is not reliable enough to employ for a theft control system.
Because the switch is not reliable.
It was designed for a seatbelt buzzer right?
How important of a system is that?
If it sometimes doesn’t buzz, is this a significant problem?
So the switch is probably OK fof that usage.

However, if key-in power craps out,,,, does your van quit on the highway?

Mine wasn’t quitting on the highway.
But there were times that key-in power came on and drained my start battery.
Other times it failed to shut off thus my theft prevetion wasnt preventing teft.

Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:02 pm

Sodo, I tend to agree, hence my interest when I saw it being discussed in the thread.

I'm testing out the performance using key in power but might switch to use key on power.

I'm still curious how the key, the lock cylinder, and the ignition switch all integrate, and if cleaning and lubricating can improve performance or not. I notice that If one just barely inserts the key, the key in power is applied. A "plunger" was mentioned. Wondering if this pushes down and contacts the ign switch ? I have not taken the lock cylinder apart but am looking at some images.

I also see that the cylinder and switch via GoWesty are very inexpensive, which tends to tell me that they are cheap aftermarket and likely crap ?

Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:21 pm

From what I've observed trying to get my 'key in' switch reliably switching off, is that some sort of contact is made as the 'shutters' are opened at the very entrance to the ignition barrel. If these stick open, the switch stays on.

I've never had it where the switch stays off with the key inserted.