TheSamba.com :: View topic - Loose input shaft

Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:28 pm

Hi all,

My beetle is never nice to me. Need to replace the input shaft seal on the trans and also the engine. Went to pull the engine and something wasnt right... the damn input shaft came out with the motor! I just bought this "good used transmission" (swingaxle) a couple months ago - was great except for it leaking oil at the main seal.

So i consulted the forums and it looks like i can fix it by taking off one of the axles to give access. Someone informed that its the passenger side I need to take off but didnt indicate if this is for a left hand drive. Can somebody confirm this please??? I assume it is LHD but i'd hate to make assumptions.

But my first problem is, i've got the engine ready to come out and would like it to come out but i havent been able to get it free of the input shaft. Has anyone got a good idea how i can get the engine free of the shaft??

I've tried to get the input shaft to screw back in... but with the motor back in place its all locked up and doesnt engage the trans properly.

Obviously i might have to have the engine back in place while i access the trans side to lock the input shaft back to be able to free the engine.

Anyone got any advice?! (other than to buy a trans from a reputable source!)

Thanks.

-Mike

Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:01 pm

Sounds like the input shaft came out with the engine, I am not sure of the method used to get it back in but lhd and rhd transmissions are the same I am not aware of any special difference in the two. The input shaft being stuck in the flywheel should be pretty straight forward getting out. Do you have the clutch and pressure plate off yet? Post up a pic I am sure people would love to see.

Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:27 pm

Boom wrote: Sounds like the input shaft came out with the engine, I am not sure of the method used to get it back in but lhd and rhd transmissions are the same I am not aware of any special difference in the two. The input shaft being stuck in the flywheel should be pretty straight forward getting out. Do you have the clutch and pressure plate off yet? Post up a pic I am sure people would love to see.

Thanks Boom. Yes, LHD RHD use the same trans but the "passenger side" is obviously different. I've since seen in several threads the people saying open the passenger side side cover were USA residents so i'm going to go with the right side.

Yes the input shaft is stuck in the flywheel and it didnt want to budge, i didnt try anything more than my hands and a tap with the wooden end of a hammer. It didnt move, so i put the engine back and i'm heading for the side cover.

I'm currently trying to find out if i can take off the side cover leaving the axle in one piece (undoing it at the spring plate end too). Its not clear in my manual if i need to open the flange first for any reason.

Anyone know??

thanks

Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:37 pm

If it were me I would pull the transaxle completely out of the car. But I don't like having to figure stuff out while in a compromised position under the car.

Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:08 pm

If I've read this right, you put the engine back in the car but now the engine won't come back out or go far enough back to pull the shaft out, correct? If so you have a real dilemma there and may have to go to extreme measures to get the engine back out. Fixing it will be a real challenge even if you had experience with transmission overhaul. The transmission will ultimately have to be removed to perform the repairs. I highly recommend you first get a Bentley service manual that covers the year/model of your car so you have an idea of how it should be repaired once apart.

Option 1, pull the engine back as far as it will go and use Vise-Grips (locking pliers) on the shaft to help pull it out. Lock them down tight on it and put a pry bar to it in order to force the shaft back. If you damage the shaft beyond repair, so be it, you will just have to replace it.

Option 2, remove the body first so you can pull the engine straight back and remove the shaft.

Once the engine is out remove the trans, get yourself an eng/trans work stand then post back here for more info.

Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:17 pm

Hi,

Correct, when trying to take the engine out... pulled all the way back just takes the input shaft with it. So i put the engine back.

I've read on several threads that the problem can be resolved if i take off the right side cover to access the input shaft where it threads onto the second piece, reverse gear and circlip that holds it all together (which is usually the problem). This can be done with the transmission in the car apparently.

Whats not clear to me at the moment is if i HAVE to undo the axle flange and circlip inside to take off the side cover... or will it all come out as one??? My manuals arent clear on this at all.

thanks.

Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:30 pm

The right transmission side cover (starter side) will have to come off. On a Beetle there is no practical way to do this with the transmission installed.

With the trans removed and on a stand, you would then remove the right axle tube complete with the right side cover, leaving the axle in place. You will also need a new gasket set to reseal the cover. You have to be careful when removing the cover, it will have to be forced off with gentle blows of a soft faced hammer. If the right carrier bearing comes off with the side cover take care not to loose or displace any shims, and make notes of their thickness and location, being sure to return them to their proper place on re-assembly.

Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:37 pm

61SNRF wrote: The right transmission side cover (starter side) will have to come off. On a Beetle there is no way to do this with the transmission installed.

With the trans removed and on a stand, you would then remove the right axle tube complete with the right side cover, leaving the axle in place. You will also need a new gasket set to reseal the cover and axle tube. You have be careful when removing the cover, it will have to be forced off with gentle blows of a soft faced hammer. If the right carrier bearing comes off with the side cover take care not to loose or displace any shims, and make notes of there thickness and location, being sure to return them to their proper place on re-assembly.

OK. Thanks 61SNRF. Your right bro, i was reading some bus threads.

Thanks again all

-Mike.

Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:59 pm

This just happened to me on a '65 swing axle. I had to remove the transaxle, remove the right side axle tube and differential side cover to access where the input shaft connects inside. In order to slide the reverse gear sleeve over the shaft, I had to loosen the left side differential cover in order for the sleeve to clear the differential ring gear. I threaded the 7mm stud out a 1/4 inch, cleaned everything and used lock tight. Then being concerned that the left side cover would leak, I just disassembled both sides and installed new gaskets before reassembling the whole thing, including new wheel bearings and axle seal kits. The whole job took about 5 hours.

Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:30 am

Sounds like two more guys who have experienced the fairly recently identified "forward self-threading" phenomenon that occurs with the old style stud. (well .. recently identified by us on Samba, but a known problem by VW engineers for decades.)

The proper cure is to use the newer style 7mm stud, which costs a mere $2 .. or you can slap it together with another early stud and take your chances.

Whatever you do, don't reuse the same stud. ( Loctite is unfortunately not the cure for this particular problem.)

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1068484.jpg

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=557933
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=568339
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=530289
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=546488
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=539881
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=549819

Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:28 am

SimiRon wrote: This just happened to me on a '65 swing axle. I had to remove the transaxle, remove the right side axle tube and differential side cover to access where the input shaft connects inside. In order to slide the reverse gear sleeve over the shaft, I had to loosen the left side differential cover in order for the sleeve to clear the differential ring gear. I threaded the 7mm stud out a 1/4 inch, cleaned everything and used lock tight. Then being concerned that the left side cover would leak, I just disassembled both sides and installed new gaskets before reassembling the whole thing, including new wheel bearings and axle seal kits. The whole job took about 5 hours.

Its been a while now, but i remember stressing that i couldn't get the shaft back on. Was dreading that i might have to take off the other side cover too... it took a fair while but i managed to get it on. Sounds like you had it rough!

Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:34 am

gears wrote: Sounds like two more guys who have experienced the fairly recently identified "forward self-threading" phenomenon that occurs with the old style stud. (well .. recently identified by us on Samba, but a known problem by VW engineers for decades.)

My problem was caused by the previous shade tree mechanic who used a cut off piece of bolt to thread the two sides together. It was much shorter than even the defective vw stud!!!

Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:05 am

I neglected to report back on my experience with this problem.

It was a clear case of the stud coming loose from the input shaft inside the transmision ("forward self-threading" phenomenon) but perhaps the biggest problem was the input shaft REALLY stuck into the engine, which prevents you from getting the engine out and would complicate things trying to get the input shaft reattached (after opening the side cover).

I was told/read that i needed to get the input shaft out of the engine at all costs!! But this wasnt an option for me. I had to travel the next day, i live out of the city, didnt have a spare input shaft on hand!!! So i was determined to get it out with damage. But it was REALLY stuck in there, and access was really limited too....

What i did in the end was i got a piece of wood (a plank really), and i made a type of "v" on top. This V was for the shaft. I would prop the shaft up with this wood (v on the shaft against the bell housing and other end on the ground) and lower SOME of the engines weight onto this wood (the engine was on a jack).

With some of the weight on the wood and the engine pushed all the way forwards against wood/bell housing, I'd give the engine a sharp pull backwards. The idea here is to create enough friction from the weight and "v" between the wood and shaft to overcome the end stuck in the engine.

After about an hour the shaft came loose without damage!

Remember, go slow, be patient and dont put too much of the engines weight on the shaft because you can bend it or damage housing. Its already a good time to put a new oil seal on the trans.

Hope this helps someone. Goodluck.

.mike.

Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:45 pm

gears wrote: Sounds like two more guys who have experienced the fairly recently identified "forward self-threading" phenomenon that occurs with the old style stud. (well .. recently identified by us on Samba, but a known problem by VW engineers for decades.)

The proper cure is to use the newer style 7mm stud, which costs a mere $2 .. or you can slap it together with another early stud and take your chances.

I know what I did when I had right hand cover off to replace a damaged input shaft. I used a metric set screw that was to long to hide in either end. That way it couldn't possibly screw all the way in and let the input shaft slide out. As I recall, I threaded it all the way into the main shaft until it stopped (and had plenty of threads for the input shaft.)