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Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:03 pm

Folks, I'm stumped on this one.

I have a 1984 Westfalia, and the turn signal indicator on the dashboard glows dimly when the car is powered on after I changed over the dash lights to 5mm LEDs. When activated the turn signals and dash indicators work as they should - bright. Also, dash light works when activating the hazard switch.

I've seen this post: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=466676&highlight=indicator+glows

Which is a good start but other than cleaning grounds (which I've done till I am blue in the face) it doesn't help unfortunately. Far as I can tell I think this is the only thread on the subject.

Here is what I've done:

* Clean all grounds - both star connectors under the dash and every other one I can find. I've even jumped the turn signal indicator directly to separate grounds and same glow.
* Traced wiring - as per Bentley 97.56-97.58. This has been invaluable in tracing wiring from the indicator on the dash to the flasher relay to the hazard switch and beyond. I've cleaned all contacts.
* When I pull fuse 11 (turn signals) the dash light will turn off (and also the turn signals won't work).
* When I pull the fuse 12 wire that goes to the ignition starter switch, the light will go out (and again, turn signals won't work at all).
* 5mm LEDs all have 1K Ohm resisters on them.
* When glowing, seems that the LED has 12volts across it, but must have low amps.

Only thing I can think of is a bad ground still (doesn't seem likely), or a faint power source from somewhere else. Heck if I know! I've killed multiple hours on this and while educational, I'm ready to see if the skilled panel can throw a lifeline if there is one.

Possibly the dash light always has this low power and using a non-LED masks it? Doesn't seem right to me.

All help appreciated! Runs fine otherwise, just bugs me to no end.

Cheers,

~Jason

Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:21 pm

Just curious, is this constant, or does it die eventually? What happens if you switch on/off the hazard lights: does the lamp remain lit?

I ask because mine does that intermittently, and switching the hazard lights on gets rid of it for me. I haven't investigated it, I got a little burnt out fixing the PO's electrical gremlins after a point.

Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:25 pm

juanl wrote: Just curious, is this constant, or does it die eventually? What happens if you switch on/off the hazard lights: does the lamp remain lit?

I ask because mine does that intermittently, and switching the hazard lights on gets rid of it for me. I haven't investigated it, I got a little burnt out fixing the PO's electrical gremlins after a point.

Good question! In this case switching the hazard does not fix the issue unfortunately. Hazards will turn on as they should (and the indicator LED will flash brightly). Interestingly, when the hazard (and the turn signal for that matter) is activated, the led will NOT glow when it is in the off portion of the blink cycle.

It only glows when neither the turn signal stalk nor the hazard is on.

Forgot to write that I tried multiple used hazards too, and turn signal relays! They all could be bad, but doesn't seem likely.

~Jason

Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:32 pm

Well, since you say it comes with switching LEDs, what happens if you switch back? :D

Actually, this is a serious question: I've had to resolder two LEDs I've gotten from superbrightleds. Bad, cheap hypothesis: bad LED elsewhere leaks current in its reverse direction? Anyway, try switching 'em and see if you can isolate it to one/all of them.

Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:41 pm

just a quick question is your front turn signals have water (wet) in the bulb sockets?
I've had water in the housing create a similiar issue before.. could be just a cooincidence to the updated dash lights.

Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:12 am

danfromsyr wrote: just a quick question is your front turn signals have water (wet) in the bulb sockets?
I've had water in the housing create a similiar issue before.. could be just a cooincidence to the updated dash lights.

Excellent point, I will check that today.

Thanks!

~Jason

Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:13 am

juanl wrote: Well, since you say it comes with switching LEDs, what happens if you switch back? :D

Actually, this is a serious question: I've had to resolder two LEDs I've gotten from superbrightleds. Bad, cheap hypothesis: bad LED elsewhere leaks current in its reverse direction? Anyway, try switching 'em and see if you can isolate it to one/all of them.

This is a good idea too, and one I should have thought of first.

However, I can't help but feel I should trace back any current leak rather than mask.

~Jason

Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:42 am

I have the same issue. Last summer my turn signals and emergency flashers wouldn't work when it was warm outside (go figure). I replaced the turn signal relay which fixed the problem but now the turn signal indicator light is always on (dim but on) and only since I replaced the relay. The issues may be unrelated but my windshield washer fluid pump and my horn don't work now either. I'll go check out the grounds and clean them up and see what happens then.

Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:04 am

jasonpap2002 wrote: However, I can't help but feel I should trace back any current leak rather than mask.

Sure. Tracing around on the dash circuit "board" is probably going to be a pain, so I was thinking you could try to isolate where the issue is by swapping the bulbs.

Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:29 am

juanl wrote: jasonpap2002 wrote: However, I can't help but feel I should trace back any current leak rather than mask.

Sure. Tracing around on the dash circuit "board" is probably going to be a pain, so I was thinking you could try to isolate where the issue is by swapping the bulbs.

I totally agree and it's great advice! I will do it to ought and hopefully find something.

Tracing electrical issues is both fun and a pain :-)

Jason

Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:23 am

The flasher circuit is pretty confusing but here goes. One thing to keep in mind is that the dash indicator blinks opposite to the outside light blinking. When those outside blinkers blink ON the dash indicator blinks OFF. Also, the dash indicator doesn't light up because something is providing it power, it always has power when the key is on. The dash indicator lights when something provides it a ground!

I would not bother with the instrument cluster at this point. I would focus on the flasher relay and its wires, as well as the emergency flasher switch.

To repeat, the blinker indicator led on the dash has 12 volts on it always when the key is on. What makes it light up is a ground being applied to its ground side. The ground is usually provided by the outside bulbs. That is right, hard to believe maybe, but the outside bulbs are low enough resistance that they can ground the dash indicator led and make it light up even though the outside bulbs don't glow. The dash led glows with only a tiny amount of amps, too low to make the outside bulbs glow.

The tricky part to understand is the flasher relay. It actually makes the dash indicator flash off by providing 12 volts to it! The same 12 volts it provides to the outside bulbs to turn them on it also puts on the ground side of the dash indicator led to turn it OFF.

You don't have a missing ground, you have a ground when you shouldn't.

Replace the flasher with a VW #21, see if that is it or not. No time for more, sorry.

Mark

jasonpap2002 wrote: Folks, I'm stumped on this one.

I have a 1984 Westfalia, and the turn signal indicator on the dashboard glows dimly when the car is powered on after I changed over the dash lights to 5mm LEDs. When activated the turn signals and dash indicators work as they should - bright. Also, dash light works when activating the hazard switch.

I've seen this post: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=466676&highlight=indicator+glows

Which is a good start but other than cleaning grounds (which I've done till I am blue in the face) it doesn't help unfortunately. Far as I can tell I think this is the only thread on the subject.

Here is what I've done:

* Clean all grounds - both star connectors under the dash and every other one I can find. I've even jumped the turn signal indicator directly to separate grounds and same glow.
* Traced wiring - as per Bentley 97.56-97.58. This has been invaluable in tracing wiring from the indicator on the dash to the flasher relay to the hazard switch and beyond. I've cleaned all contacts.
* When I pull fuse 11 (turn signals) the dash light will turn off (and also the turn signals won't work).
* When I pull the fuse 12 wire that goes to the ignition starter switch, the light will go out (and again, turn signals won't work at all).
* 5mm LEDs all have 1K Ohm resisters on them.
* When glowing, seems that the LED has 12volts across it, but must have low amps.

Only thing I can think of is a bad ground still (doesn't seem likely), or a faint power source from somewhere else. Heck if I know! I've killed multiple hours on this and while educational, I'm ready to see if the skilled panel can throw a lifeline if there is one.

Possibly the dash light always has this low power and using a non-LED masks it? Doesn't seem right to me.

All help appreciated! Runs fine otherwise, just bugs me to no end.

Cheers,

~Jason

Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:39 am

Now that's informative! Thanks! Jason, sorry for the misdirection.

Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:59 am

i don't have any new insight that hasn't been posted already, but i will mention one thing i've observed. i owned 3 vans for awhile this year and did a lot of parts-swapping between them. one thing i noticed was that one of my instrument clusters exhibited this issue. it had a lot of other issues as well, so it got moved to my parts van.

the parts van did not exhibit this problem before, but it did once the problematic instrument cluster was installed. and the van that originally had the faintly glowing turn signal LED did not once i put in the good instrument panel. so grounds, chassis wiring, or water in the turn signal housings had nothing to do with it--the source of the faintly glowing turn signal (at least in my case) resides within the instrument panel.

Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:35 pm

crazyvwvanman wrote: The flasher circuit is pretty confusing but here goes. One thing to keep in mind is that the dash indicator blinks opposite to the outside light blinking. When those outside blinkers blink ON the dash indicator blinks OFF. Also, the dash indicator doesn't light up because something is providing it power, it always has power when the key is on. The dash indicator lights when something provides it a ground!

I would not bother with the instrument cluster at this point. I would focus on the flasher relay and its wires, as well as the emergency flasher switch.

To repeat, the blinker indicator led on the dash has 12 volts on it always when the key is on. What makes it light up is a ground being applied to its ground side. The ground is usually provided by the outside bulbs. That is right, hard to believe maybe, but the outside bulbs are low enough resistance that they can ground the dash indicator led and make it light up even though the outside bulbs don't glow. The dash led glows with only a tiny amount of amps, too low to make the outside bulbs glow.

The tricky part to understand is the flasher relay. It actually makes the dash indicator flash off by providing 12 volts to it! The same 12 volts it provides to the outside bulbs to turn them on it also puts on the ground side of the dash indicator led to turn it OFF.

You don't have a missing ground, you have a ground when you shouldn't.

Replace the flasher with a VW #21, see if that is it or not. No time for more, sorry.

Mark

Wow! This is fantastic, the tip on how the dashboard light works really helps. Its the ground I'm chasing!

More once I test tonight.

~Jason

Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:04 pm

Ok, making progress I think.

Here is what I tested tonight:

* Checked all turn signal bulbs at all four corners to ensure solid connection and dry leads. I unplugged them one at a time and tried the turn signal to try to isolate the ground. No change.
* Plugged in all of my spare flasher relays, no change. They all behave similarly and since they are used/old they could all be bad. No change (I'll buy a new 21 this weekend).
* Plugged in the three extra hazards (even took one apart and cleaned it). Same behavior, no change.
* I did notice that I do not have the hazard light working on the switch. Tried different bulbs/holders and no love. Made me wonder if this was not a culprit somehow. Will revisit once I have new bulb perhaps.
* Traced some voltage. Here is what I found:

- I measured voltage across T14/9 and ground - found 12 volts.
- Measured across T14/14 and ground found 3 volts. Hmmm.. So T14/14 goes to the flasher relay. I would think these both should be 12 volts.
- I measured voltage from 49 (W) and ground and found 12 volts. I then unplugged 49a (BL/R) and measured across 49a on the relay and ground and got 12 volts.
- I then measured across the 49a wire (not connected to the relay) and got 0.12 volts! I would think this would be 0. When I connect the 49a wire back to the relay I measure 3 volts across it. Huh?

On the flasher relay post 49a wire two wires are attached - the (BK/W/G) goes directly to the hazard switch (as does white 49).

As I am writing this I will check something tomorrow. Currently (no pun) I have the 1Kohm resister coming off of the negative lead on the LED which is on the "non BL/R" side of the connection. I am wondering if this should be opposite - put the 1Kohm resister on the BL/R side since the bulb turns on b/c of switching ground, not switching power. Not sure if I'm clear but I'll try it.

ANYway. I do think it's weird that I am getting 0.12 volts across the 49a wire and ground when it is hanging free. Really makes me think the hazard switch but I can't see how something could be broken there.

Good practice troubleshooting wiring.

~Jason

Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:27 pm

You can see the issue in your voltage readings. If you have 12 volts on the plus side of the led and only 3 volts on the other then the missing 9 volts is dropping across the diode and resistor, enough to make the led glow.

Nothing should be but it looks like something is providing a weak ground path on the 49a leg of the wiring. Only 3 other things are supposed to be connected to that leg, the flasher relay, the hazard switch, and the turn signal switch.

Try unplugging the flasher relay entirely to see if the led turns all the way off. Then unplug the hazard switch too. If the led is still glowing unplug the harness from the turn signal switch. One of these should show itself as the path that is providing a ground when it shouldn't. I say ground but it won't measure as a true ground or the led would be on strong.

Mark

jasonpap2002 wrote: Ok, making progress I think.

Here is what I tested tonight:

* Checked all turn signal bulbs at all four corners to ensure solid connection and dry leads. I unplugged them one at a time and tried the turn signal to try to isolate the ground. No change.
* Plugged in all of my spare flasher relays, no change. They all behave similarly and since they are used/old they could all be bad. No change (I'll buy a new 21 this weekend).
* Plugged in the three extra hazards (even took one apart and cleaned it). Same behavior, no change.
* I did notice that I do not have the hazard light working on the switch. Tried different bulbs/holders and no love. Made me wonder if this was not a culprit somehow. Will revisit once I have new bulb perhaps.
* Traced some voltage. Here is what I found:

- I measured voltage across T14/9 and ground - found 12 volts.
- Measured across T14/14 and ground found 3 volts. Hmmm.. So T14/14 goes to the flasher relay. I would think these both should be 12 volts.
- I measured voltage from 49 (W) and ground and found 12 volts. I then unplugged 49a (BL/R) and measured across 49a on the relay and ground and got 12 volts.
- I then measured across the 49a wire (not connected to the relay) and got 0.12 volts! I would think this would be 0. When I connect the 49a wire back to the relay I measure 3 volts across it. Huh?

On the flasher relay post 49a wire two wires are attached - the (BK/W/G) goes directly to the hazard switch (as does white 49).

As I am writing this I will check something tomorrow. Currently (no pun) I have the 1Kohm resister coming off of the negative lead on the LED which is on the "non BL/R" side of the connection. I am wondering if this should be opposite - put the 1Kohm resister on the BL/R side since the bulb turns on b/c of switching ground, not switching power. Not sure if I'm clear but I'll try it.

ANYway. I do think it's weird that I am getting 0.12 volts across the 49a wire and ground when it is hanging free. Really makes me think the hazard switch but I can't see how something could be broken there.

Good practice troubleshooting wiring.

~Jason

Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:32 pm

Thanks! I do feel like it's progress, even though it's not fixed yet.

I should have written this before. When I disconnect the flasher relay and the ignition is on, the LED will go dark completely.

Same thing with the hazard switch. In fact just pulling the BK/W/G wire from the hazard will turn off the LED (unfortunately the turn signal won't work then either). I haven't tried just pulling the harness from the turn signal (I'll try that now).

~Jason

EDIT - Just tried to find the turn signal harness but couldn't in the dark, will have to try tomorrow. I did confirm the BK/W/G wire will turn off the LED and still permit the hazard to activate the dash light, but the turn signal will not work.

Getting closer.

Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:12 pm

As a quick shot in the dark, try unplugging the connector from the back of the brake warning light module by the headlight switch. Is the problem there with that unplugged?

Mark

Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:30 pm

crazyvwvanman wrote: As a quick shot in the dark, try unplugging the connector from the back of the brake warning light module by the headlight switch. Is the problem there with that unplugged?

Mark

Thanks! I tried that (and other things) just now. Unfortunately the glow happens regardless if the module is plugged in or not.

I think I have uncovered root cause. I checked voltage on both T14/9 and T14/4 again and found both at 12volts. So, maybe it was late last time? Anyway, it seems to be the same.

I was thinking last night that since both leads are hot and it's the ground that causes the light to blink this may be causing the issue. Since the LED requires the ground side to have a 1k ohm resister perhaps I have it on the wrong side. I tried switching it and found that the hazards then worked without a glow, but then the turn signals did not work. So, perhaps if the hazards are switched on then one side is given ground and if turn signal its the other? Anyway, it seems that it has a polarity so to speak.

I then plugged in a bulb instead of LED and found that it seemed to work. Whether it has too low of a current to have it glow or something, it still works better.

Not sure if someone has written up how to put an LED for the turn signal but I'll check that too.

More when I have it!

~Jason

Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:35 pm

I bought two LED column arrays to put into Winston's front turn signals, out to try ONCE again to complete converting his exterior lights to LED's. The bulbs Superbrite LED's sold me off their 'bulb finder' were NOT the right ones. The web site says I can return them for a refund, aggravating, but not fatal.

Anyway... I replaced Winston's original mechanical '21' flasher relay with a NAPA model people had said would work with LED's... It DID, but the green LED always glowed dimly and flashed when I signaled... and it was faster on one side (driver's) than the other, and a VERY rapid flash, notwithstanding the conventional incandescent 2357's I'd stuck into the front sockets. I actually didn't mind the rapid flash at all, but the glow bothered me.

Today, as I found out that the new LED's wouldn't fit, I pulled the fuse box down and stuck in the old relay again. It flashed at the normal rate, and all four bulbs lit and flashed normally, and no green glow in the LED. Haven't tested things driving or with the new LED's I want to try again, but... It's data.

Best!