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Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:00 pm

hi guys, it's all the evening till now i'm trying to understand this f#cking horn of my beetle of 63.

i think there's something wrong with the steering shaft, i have always conductiblity, according to diagrams i suppose the steering shaft must be isolated from chassis mass.

If yes, why my rubber steering coupler has conductivity from one hole to each other?? my rubber coulpler is a bilstein from germany.

Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:09 pm

Some of the German rubber couplings being supplied now for our cars are incorrect for the earlier style car -- the rubber couplings are CONDUCTIVE!! I have a post on this somewhere as I struggled with it. I found one locally that's used for a Suzuki Jimmy -- it's the type that is built in layers like a tire. That solved the problem.

Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:12 am

sputnick60 wrote: This is an attempt to guide the ones who are having trouble with what is really a simple circuit. The confusion I think is most people don't truly understand the symbols in the circuit diagrams. Understandably so, because this portion has the most cryptic symbols of all. Even though all is shown in the diagram this horn arrangement, especially the parts associated with the steering wheel are not easy to follow. I'm an engineer and I too needed a good look at it to get the hidden message. SO, we won't use the circuit diagram and instead have a thoroughly proper look all the parts and how they go together to make this work.

...
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=369613

Thanks so much!

Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:14 pm

Figment wrote: jovanybg, I just had to chase out the "always-on" horn on my '71 last night.

It appears that you, like me, have an aftermarket or otherwise "replacement" turn signal switch assembly.
On mine, I discovered that the horn wire is white not brown as shown in the wiring diagrams.
.....

Figment, your post was very helpful.

THE PROBLEM
I'd turn on the ignition on my '71 and the horn would just blaze "always-on". Checked all the wiring according to all the other posts (thank you all.. BTW) and also the instructions according to the new wiring harness instructions and Ghia diagrams. All looked right until I can across your post.

RESOLUTION:
I also had to connect the BROWN wire (from Terminal 85 on the horn relay) to a WHITE wire (coming from the the steering column harness). The small Brown wire from the steering column harness is actually the ground.

My wiring was all stock so it appears that this white wire change may have been standard for '71 Ghia (but I'm no expert).

After the horn was working.. i was able to successfully test lights and got the RetroSound stereo working. I've never wired a stereo with an amp before. But i got tunes!

Was also able to crank the engine. Looks like I may have wired it all up correctly. Exciting times!!![/u][/b] :D

Sat May 09, 2020 11:54 am

I’m going to add my current horn issue on my ‘71 Ghia. The PO had used a push button on the dash for the horn and I decided this weekend to correct that and use the horn ring.

I’ve installed a new horn relay, ran the 12V lines and connected them along with the horns. If I ground terminal 85 on the relay I get sound from the horns. I then confirmed that the brown wire ran up to the steering wheel, it did. As soon as I connect the brown wire to terminal 85 the horns goes of, damn...

So I traced wires and checked the steering column and fixed a couple issues but horns still go off when the brown wire is connected.

I then took the steering wheel of and viola! The horn doesn’t go off when terminal 85 connected to my brown wire.

The brown wire connects to a copper ‘tab’ at the 11 ‘o’clock position in the column - picture below;

The back of the steering wheel looks like this;

It makes sense why the horn is going off when the steering wheel is on since the center is all metal which grounds it and completes the circuit.

What am I missing to make this simple circuit work?

Sat May 09, 2020 1:20 pm

Okay so I may have solved my problem but would like to confirm with the experts.

I don’t have a brown wire that goes down the steering shaft and I believe that is correct. I did find horn/cancelling rings that are NOT all metal and I’m thinking that it what I need and the reason the PO could never get the horn to work correctly.

Any thoughts on using a metal&plastic horn/cancelling ring (Which has a pigtail to connects to the horn ‘button’) instead of the current all metal horn/cancelling ring?

Thanks All

Sat May 09, 2020 1:35 pm

Do you know if the turn signal switch is original? I ask because it doesn't look like my 71. 1971 turn signal switch is specific to that year, at least that's what I understand from reading through the various information. You should have a copper tab on the top and bottom that looks kind of like a C, and on the back of your steering wheel, you are missing a horn contact ring that has a small copper ring and a tab that goes down into the steering column that cancels the turn signals. There is a small wire connected to it that connects to the horn wire.

I did mine recently and replaced missing/broken parts and mine looks nothing like yours, that turn signal switch looks like a pre-71. Here are some pics, but also look through the vendors to see the parts I am talking about. Here's the horn contact ring I mentioned

Sat May 09, 2020 2:07 pm

@rbsurfguy - I’m not sure if the turn signal switch is original or not but looking at JBugs there appear to be two different versions and mine at least matches the one. (The wire connectors appear to be the other difference but I haven’t dug that far into the steering column)

The contact ring on my current steering wheel is all metal and while you cant see it there is a tab that cancels the turn signals, although it didn’t work consistently and I blame that on being oriented incorrectly - it was at the 9 o’clock position and I would suspect it should have been at the 3 o’clock position.

I’m going to purchase a new contact ring - not all metal- and see if that solves my problem based on your comment above.

When I finally tear her down, just want to enjoy driving it for now, I’ll research further for the correct turn signal switch. (Current one works)

Appreciate the response!

ETA - you wouldn’t happen to know what size screws are used to fasten the horn/cancelling ring to the steering wheel would you? The current screws are wrong and need to be replaced. :roll:

Sat May 09, 2020 2:31 pm

chaas67 wrote:
ETA - you wouldn’t happen to know what size screws are used to fasten the horn/cancelling ring to the steering wheel would you? The current screws are wrong and need to be replaced. :roll:

No problem, I'm sure not all are the same, like you, I am going with what I had when I tore mine down, hence the turn signal switch I have. Regarding the screws, that question was asked previously in this thread, check a few pages back, but these are also available from JBugs, Airhead Parts, all the usual vendors.
Enjoy!
Jeff

Sat May 09, 2020 3:09 pm

rbsurfguy Jeff is showing you the correct images for a ‘71.
I replaced mine this last year during my refresh.
I did the whole shot. Bearings, bushings, ignition switch and painted it all.
It got frustrating because the part descriptions from some vendors are incorrect.
The reproduction steering wheel had a hub that needed attention. It was a repro after all, so no surprise.
The first cancelling ring I bought was like yours but was too small a diameter for the ‘71 switch. It also wouldn’t mount in with the tab at 3:00. It was described as fitting a ‘71 but doesn’t. I found the correct one at Aircooled.net. Their descriptions are correct. I bought the bearings, bushings, spacers, clips etc at the same time I don’t remember who from but probably CIP and none of them were correct.
I got the right stuff from a combination of ACN and Airhead Parts.

When I put it all together MY HORN BLEW ALL THE TIME TOO.
Turns out I didn’t have the insulating washers under the column support bracket so my column was grounded. Interestingly, when I disconnected the wire through the column it would operate normally but I found that if I had my arm on the window sill and pressed the horn, I would get a nice little jolt of electricity. The washers fixed it for me.

Sun May 10, 2020 4:42 am

This topic coming up again was timely. I finally figured out how to hook up a battery to check my wiring, saw some lights work, wiper motor spun, all seemed good, then suddenly out of nowhere, my horn went off, at least I know they work, so I yanked one of the horn wires to stop the noise.

Now I'm going to have to go back through this whole tutorial to find out where it's grounded. I think it may be in the steering wheel itself as I may have set the screws too close to the contact disk...ugh, well at least I got hot readings at the fuse panel so most of the wiring seems good at this point and nothing melted!
Jeff

Sun May 10, 2020 6:03 am

rbsurfguy wrote: This topic coming up again was timely.
Jeff
There is a purpose to the stickies, you know,
..worth having a look one day Jeff :D 8) :lol:
Nicholas

Sun May 10, 2020 6:33 am

Yes Sir, that is what I meant to infer, the topic and the Sticky that you awesomely put together......my situation occurred and then I came in to see someone had posted on this topic....Don't be so snarky!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Jeff
Oh yeah, I have a Sticky too......

Sun May 10, 2020 8:46 am

rbsurfguy wrote:
Oh yeah, I have a Sticky too......

Sounds like a personal problem ;)

Tue May 12, 2020 8:50 am

what a great topic! thanks!

I also had some issues with my horns, and this topic allowed me to find the problem!

The PO removed the relay... The red wire from fuse 1 is directly connected to the horns. The horns are in series as well. So the first one broke, and no more horn. If I disconnect the faulty horn, the other one works fine.

Is there a huge risk not having the relay? Anyway I will buy a relay and adjust the wires, but I was just wondering.

Thanks!
Tom

Tue May 12, 2020 11:10 am

As I understand, if there is no relay, you cannot use the "reversed" switching for the horns.

So the ground is switched (full cable from your horn button up until the horns), and the ignition plus (15) is always hot with the ignition on. I don't know if the main issue is the strain on all the components or just the fact that the always hot wire may short out, but others will chime in as well.

It may be a stupid decision, but there certainly is at least one good reason the Tschermans thought of, why you should fork out the 5-8$ for a relay :) I could offer to send you one for free (I have a brand new HELLA one), but the shipping is more than one would cost locally probably :cry:

Edit 2: I think I found it....The switched ground cable is really thin (0,5mm²). Even if it thickens along the way, the thin part really is the weak point. The horns are strong, and so much current grounding through the thin cable is not good for a longer horn action. For a short test maybe it's OK, but if you keep honking, that cable inside the dash may melt :shock:

Tue May 12, 2020 11:48 am

Thanks for the explaination. They cost juist a few € so i will pick one up tomorrow. I Will also have look at the ground cable to check its ok.

Tue May 12, 2020 2:09 pm

So I looked through this thread until my eyes crossed and didn't see any reference to my question which is, what size screw is used to fasten the horn and signal cancel to the steering wheel?

I'm not referring to the three screws with springs and nylons bushings and washers.

Here's a pic - the PO had used some screw that barely worked and the horn cancel ring fell off when I removed the steering wheel from the column.

I have what I believe to be the correct ring on order but it doesn't come with screws.

Short of finding the right screw I might have to tap new holes.

Tue May 12, 2020 2:17 pm

@tomzzz - I've always used relays to reduce the current that runs through a lower amperage switch. The relay will allow you to drive a heavier amperage circuit.

I'm not sure about the '67 but the '71, and I would assume most years, use a relay for the horn. The PO for my car couldn't figure out the horn and actually used a push button to connect the hot lead to the horn and the reason I'm trying to get it squared away. I've taken that approach on other circuits and the switches fail at some point and sometimes even spectacularly..

This is just my opinion and YMMV.

Sat May 23, 2020 12:15 pm

Well the horns are now working as designed!

Running into an issue with the turn signals not cancelling and appears that the lug on the horn ring isn’t long enough but based on rbsurfguy’s post above I think it’s an issue with the turn signal housing and need to source the correct one. For now I’ll remember to turn off the signals. :D