TheSamba.com :: View topic

Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:53 pm

I recently did an oil service,valve clearance,plugs,plug leads service.
I fitted brand new points and checked the dwell and timing.
went out for a 45 minute drive and noted the speed up certain hills etc.
Came home and fitted the Accuspark electronic ignition module and checked timing.
i then did the same 45 minute drive and the engine has a slight power increase and is alot smoother.
I keep the points and condenser in the bus just in case the module fails.
They are popular in Europe/UK and have heard of many people who have had no problems with them.
the bus idles very stable and is easier to start,just flick the key and it fires up.
I know that some people here are traditionalists but for those who arent i can highly recommend this kit,only cost 30 pounds in the UK.

Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:55 pm

Did you set the ignition timing after installing the points and again after installed the accuspark?

Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:59 pm

Yes timing was set after new points and electronic ignition fitment.

Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:44 pm

My bus is in the shop getting electronic ingintion and new carbs right now. I look forward to see if I notice a difference. Thanks for the report.

Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:22 pm

Not really an "electronic ignition" and really just a "points replacement module".

Nothing wrong with that though.

Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:28 pm

Interesting. I always wondered if I actually felt a difference, or if the placebo effect was what I felt ;)

Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:39 pm

Randy in Maine wrote: Not really an "electronic ignition" and really just a "points replacement module".

Nothing wrong with that though.
Commonly known as electronic ignition here in europe where these busses originate from.
the points have been replaced by an electronic module that ignites the spark plug,hence "electronic ignition"

http://www.accuspark.co.uk/accuspark.html
in here they call it an electronic ignition module.

not quite sure what you meant? we all understand that it replaces the points system,it does this electronically.

Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:53 pm

asiab3 wrote: Interesting. I always wondered if I actually felt a difference, or if the placebo effect was what I felt ;)

I was sceptical and not really positive about it,it was cheap so i thought i would give it a try anyway.
The difference is there in my opinion so im keeping it on!

Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:52 pm

Cool! Run what you like 8)

Keep two sets of points, so if you help someone stranded you won't get stranded yourself.

Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:56 pm

Darn, I never realized that the molecules of gasoline and oxygen being ignited by a spark would know what kind of source the spark came from.

The coil limits the RPM as the magnetic flux saturates long before the points max out, and the spark plug gap sets the firing voltage. How the heck do those little molecules know that a little module under the cap is grounding the coil instead of the points? What will they think of next?

Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:50 pm

SGKent wrote: Darn, I never realized that the molecules of gasoline and oxygen being ignited by a spark would know what kind of source the spark came from.

The coil limits the RPM as the magnetic flux saturates long before the points max out, and the spark plug gap sets the firing voltage. How the heck do those little molecules know that a little module under the cap is grounding the coil instead of the points? What will they think of next?

With the points it's important to have no resistance in either the feed from the coil, or more likely to have problems, the ground circuit thru the distributor, case, ground strap off the tranny to the body, and then the ground strap at the negative battery post.

The resistance cuts the current and drops the ignition output...I think this setup is like a Mopar ignition from the '70s, toothed wheel and impulse sensor/generator. Had it's own harness from the module and didn't use a ground thru the engine.

If you know how to do a voltage drop test, you can measure the actual loss. And then determine exactly where the resistance is.

Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:57 pm

cliveawn wrote: Commonly known as electronic ignition here in europe where these busses originate from.
the points have been replaced by an electronic module that ignites the spark plug,hence "electronic ignition"

http://www.accuspark.co.uk/accuspark.html
in here they call it an electronic ignition module..

A points replacement module would be a subset of electronic ignitions in my book. Other subsets would be systems using an ignition module and ones that have the modules function built into the ECU.

FWIW, I have about the same amount of miles on both electronic ignition and Kettering ignitions. Have had three failure of the electronic ignitions, two which required tows, and no break downs of the Kettering ignitions, though I have been lucky not to have with the quality of today's parts. My Kettering rigs also start pretty much the same as my electronic ignition rigs, usually on the first tick over when the temps are cool enough I don't have issues with our alcohol laced modern gas.

Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:00 pm

Wildthings wrote: My Kettering rigs also start pretty much the same as my electronic ignition rigs, usually on the first tick over when the temps are cool enough I don't have issues with our alcohol laced modern gas.

Interesting that you mentioned that. I noticed that the electronic module got me started a few cranks later than the points. Probably the crap brand module I used, but I've always wondered if others had better luck.

Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:37 am

Might need to upgrade your coil and plug wires. My pertronix fires immediately after 20 years of running. EI was made to increase the efficiency of the ignition system. What it does is is build the coil voltage for a longer time, and collapse it more consistently than a mechanical dizzy with many moving points that wear immediately. It gives a stronger spark. Of course, a good fuel delivery system is half of the mix.

Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:38 am

Sounds like the (Euro) AccuSpark unit is much like the US-sourced Pertronix points-replacement module (and the many knock-off clones), and, agreed… it's definitely 'electronic' in nature (depending on one’s definition and expectations!).

Due to my being too cheap at the time, our ’68 Westy has been using the same set of still shiny Bosch points since about 1985, albeit with yearly daubing of a bit of fresh Bosch grease on the rubbing block & distributor cam. Difference is that those points merely pass a few milliamps to trigger a simple capacitive discharge box (a $19.95 Radio Shack ‘kit’, made by Universal Co.) that shocks the coil into action. That does affect the coil saturation time, advancing the actual spark timing by about 1 degree, so as Glenn hinted, a timing adjustment should be done after installation.

OTOH if this unit craps out electronically, a pushbutton on the side sets it back to the oem points circuitry. Basic stuff (someone told me the circuit was printed in a Popular Mechanix magazine issue in the early 1950s!), and likely not sophisticated enough for racer-types, but it has worked perfectly well for under-6,000 RPM operation in our camper. Honestly, I probably should carry a spare set of points, just in case the current set finally beaks its spring; been spoiled too long!

A capacitive discharge ignition system does demand good set of metallic (monel) spark plug wires; found that out earlier with one of my non-VWs… CD will blast out carbon-wick spark plug wires! The Westy got monel wires with the CD system installation, and those same wires are still great today. Its plugs, set at .045”, get changed proactively at about 50K-60K miles. The CD system seems IMO more forgiving of temperature or altitude-related mismatches in fuel mixture than the oem Kettering system was. Crane & MSD may still carry simple CD systems; IDK.

Fun travels to you & your bus.

Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:12 am

I'm glad I choose to get the Pertroinx instead of a cheep brand. Good thread, thx.

Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:00 am

Yea the cheap knockoffs/clones don't last so if u guys are still running them be sure to carry your spare points ect or like me,carrie a spare dizzy w/clamp already timed for a quick roadside swap :wink:

Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:28 am

based on my experience and understanding developed over 50 years plus working around cars, boats and electronics, there are many different types of electronic ignitions. They serve several functions, one being they eliminate wear of the points to lower service costs. This started with capacitive discharge systems that used the existing points in a system as a trigger instead of carrying the coil current. With CD systems, points would last a long time - 100,000's of miles until the rubbing block wore out or dust and grease collected on the points to block the trigger. Some units like the Judson had their own built in coils so one could increase the firing voltage as well by widening the plug gap. Stronger plug wires were needed due to the higher voltages.

Judson system

early Delta CD system. Very high end for its time (late 60's - early 70's)

Mercury outboards had a racing program and part of it was centered around ignition systems. They early on in the late 60's early 70's had an optical trigger unit where a light shown onto a pickup thru slots in a trigger wheel. These worked well at all RPMs and were limited to electronic failure from vibration and corrosion.

Optical trigger style

Mercury was an early adopter of a multi-coil system so their racing engines could continue to run strong at higher RPMs. Prior to this a single ignition coil had limited the RPM their engines could operate at. As the RPM increases the coil saturates so the firing voltage falls at higher RPMS. Most cars today have a coil pack on this later design. In a coil pack, each cylinder has its own coil so the number of pulses is reduced by 4, 6 or 8 etc. This allows a very high energy spark at all RPMs. A single coil system like the VW one on a FOUR cylinder engine is still limited by the coil flux totally saturating at lower RPM's - typically around 10,000 - 12,000 RPM. It is lower on six and eight cylinder engines because their are more pulses. A four cylinder engine has 1/2 as many pulses at any RPM than an eight cylinder system. Point flutter can also occur when the points are not of high quality and they have not been maintained. Ford designed a system with a computer and an air gap magnetic trigger. I replaced many of them for friends during the 1980's and 1990's as the units were very prone to failure. Chevy came up with a HEI system that was prone to failure as the parts could not stand the voltage. Some of the manufacturers went to a computer controlled firing mechanism that used a gap on the crankshaft pulley or cam to tell the engine where it was in the firing timing. This combined with RPM sensors allowed the computer to divide time into degrees and fire the engine accordingly. Knock sensors were added to protect the engines from the computers being too over zealous in their firing timing. Manufacturers, even Honda had recalls on their ignition systems (Igniters) as high voltages tended to damage the components over time. Mixtures were going leaner and leaner, and higher firing voltages are needed to ignite the leaner mixtures. Some engineering solutions were coil packs mounted directly on spark plugs, fired by a computer and wide plug gaps with rare earth metals on the plugs to slow wear.

Here are coil packs on an Acura V6 and below it is an image of a Nissan Coil pack after it has been removed.

Other manufacturers who used wires still had coil packs like this Ford one

One things the electronic ignition replacements for points do not due in a well tuned system is "give you a smoother ride" or "more power" at the crusing RPM's VW buses operate at. This would only occur if your ignition system is in poor shape. So if you find you get more power with an electronic ignition on your bus, another way of interpreting it is to say you have been a lazy ass mechanic who does not maintain or know how to maintain your bus. Or as some have stated, it is the placebo effect. The Placebo effect is a strong desire for something to work. Some get it so strongly they become missionaries for the product and anyone knows that all testimonials are 100% accurate, right? Yeah. I remember once convincing myself when about 10 - 12 years old that we got noticeably better fuel mileage when the car had a good wax job on it. Placebo effect.

On the other hand, if you say that you got tired of changing points every 12,000 to 15,000 miles and your electronic ignition stops that maintenance item, and that you enjoy not having to change the points, that would be a very honest assessment of what you will get from your electronic ignition. Occasionally someone with a lot of play in the distributor shaft will see a benefit on running because the rotor is more balanced than a set of points. However replacing the distributor with one that is not worn out would also fix the issue.

FWIW, I base my assessments on being around these items and dyno tests we did racing in the 1970's and 1980's when these type items were being developed. We got ZERO HP and torque gain from electronic ignitions. Since we already maintained the distributors on a regular basis before each race, we gained ZERO in reduced maintenance.

Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:05 am

I have a Petronix module and in the case of failure of this unit, what screws do I need to install the points? I have an 009 distributor and I want to be prepared. Sorry if I high jacked your topic but I need to know.

Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:54 am

GeorgeO. wrote: I have a Petronix module and in the case of failure of this unit, what screws do I need to install the points? I have an 009 distributor and I want to be prepared. Sorry if I high jacked your topic but I need to know.
M4x6mmx.7 pitch

Since this is turning into a generic points vs module topic, lets use the existing one so everything is in one place.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=281144