View original topic: Lizard Skin Sprayable Sound Deadener and Thermal Insulation Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
insyncro Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:23 am

I am glad that more are taking the plunge.

First and foremost I feel it necessary to explain that sprayable sound deaden works when best laid on evenly.
We want to have the layers be equal in depth, without missed areas, heavily built up areas and most of all, if it sags or cracks, it has been applied far to thick in that location.

The provided gun has two adjustable features, flow control or feed amount, via the tip and pressure via a regulator that would be a part of your compressor.

I want the finished product to look great, even though most will be covered up.
I spray at a very high pressure, 100psi+ and only recommend doing so after you test spray onto cardboard.
I am constantly cleaning and adjusting the tip of the gun.
Certain areas need more, certain less, depending upon the previous layering.

I have been asked how to attach carpet to the LS after it cures.
I have not or plan to do this so call Lizard's toll free customer service line for answers, help and general support is highly recommended.
I talked to them for hours before I starting using the products.

As far as the mil gauge.
Again, test spray on to paper to get the gun dialed in and you used to the process.
The product cleans up with water, so before shooting the van, shoot paper, clean the gun after putting the unused LS back into the tub and tightly seal it.
Take the paper, once dry and slide it into the gauge...that is the mil thickness of the build.
Than repeat that amount and spray pattern throughout the van.

bene ben ben Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:55 am

ahhhh, cheers Elvis! i will give them a call for sure!
Insyncro... once again... top thread, and great advice!

insyncro Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:05 am

Thanks Ben.

Microbusdeluxe Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:20 am

I really appreciate all of the expert advice on this subject. However, I do have to question one item. At first blush the idea that we would expect the best result from a perfectly even application of the product seems valid. And it probably is true, but in more of a theoretical way.

In the real world this it is totally contrary to the widely held belief that when one applies the butyl rubber sound pads (B-Quiet, Brown Bread, etc.) coverage over 50% of the area is a waste of materials and time. And in the case of the rubber pads the difference in material application is nothing on some segments of the panel vs 1/8-1/4 of an inch on other areas. The spray blobs are maybe 1/32 of an inch thicker than the adjacent area. And the big blobs total maybe 2% of the area vs 50% of no coverage with the pads.

I know in building science we are learning that even tiny gaps in insulation allow air infiltration which has a very large effect on temperature control. But I'm not so sure this applies to sound attenuation.

Anyway, I'm not expert so my opinion is just that, but these seem to be 2 contrary theories.

insyncro Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:31 am

Straight up, I don't like the look of blobs or cracks, when talking insulation or other things :wink:

We are doing this to create a sound, heat and vapor barrier via encapsulation.

Most of the professional jobs you will see on the interweb, not only work great, but look great.
That is what I am shooting for.

I am sure that built up product is ok.
When covering it with something like carpet, I would want as consistent of a under layer as possible.

Merian Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:54 am

even tiny gaps in "insulation" allow sound transmission which has a very large detriment on sound attenuation

you can find this in the scientific & engineering literature if you search, but can also just think about the gap under a door in your home - if your house isn't noisy enough, I'm sure someone will loan you some noisy kids for a test

the 25% dampener coverage you mention is an interesting point - you might ask Cascade Designs - they are the only retail company I know of where an actual engineer is employed and will answer questions - one reason I like them (some years ago I wrote a number of companies on letterhead with questions - only they gave coherent replies)

if concerned, closed cell foam could be used around the dampener pads to get a uniform depth - but I think most people just spray the ceramic micro-bead products on with no dampeners - it seems to work tho I have never seen a side by side test

cost and wt. are other concerns

insyncro Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:31 pm

Merian wrote: cost and wt. are other concerns

The rear hatch on Kyle's Westy had weak struts to begin with, but after the Lizard layering, it will not stay up as is.
Heavy Duty struts will work just fine and again the ones on it were shot anyway.

The sound the hatch makes when it closes is a sound that not many have ever experienced in a Vanagon.
Very solid :!:

Microbusdeluxe Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:01 am

I just completed shooting the second phase of the Lizard Skin, the Ceramic Insulation. Compared to the Sound Control this stuff is much lighter in weight and quite a bit thicker. If Sound Control is pancake batter, this is more like bread dough, make that Wonder Bread dough.

After mixing it still seemed awfully thick so I added a few DROPS of water to it, which did the trick. I ended up spraying 3 coats (I did 4 of the Sound Control). And even though it may not pass muster with the pros :wink: I'm happy with how it turned out. I had a bit of overspray, but not in any high visible places. Since it's dry, I'm going to try to clean it up with rubbing compound. Another poster mentioned an odor coming off of it, but I didn't notice any.

First coat, shot light

After 3 coats

insyncro Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:22 am

I can see that you are getting the hang of the spraying....nice job, looks great :!:
Only to be covered up, but still, I like seeing the progression of layered spraying.

So please talk to me about the "white" of the CI, can you describe the cured color?
White, warm white, cool white, bright white?

Also, nice technique when mixing using a few drops of water, it does help.
What I am finding with some containers and definitely after using some and resealing, crusty bits form at the top edges of the bucket.
I take my hand mixing, plastic scraper and pull them out into a small container...add a few drops to that container, wait about 20 mins, mix thoroughly, add back to the large container, dip the provided stirring attachment into water and have at mixing it all together.
I haven't wasted much of the product at all.

Thanks for the personal experience being posted...with pictures :!:

Microbusdeluxe Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:43 pm

My best description of the level of whiteness in the Ceramic spray would be somewhere between fresh snow and a Mitt Romney family portrait i.e. it's quite white. I reglued the carpet today and it went in fine. I used Locktite spray adhesive on the carpet and the sprayed surface, it worked great.

Now on to the main area. I have to remove the cabinets & door panels, spray everything, then run wires for a new amp, the Vitrifrigo refer and solar power.

insyncro Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:08 am

Looking forward to you impressions once all reassembled and driven.

Kyle's van with the Lizard products inside and the Monstaliner exterior sounds just as expected when doors and hatches are now closed...very solid.

AC is being installed this week so I will have a better idea of the thermal insulation action on our internal temp.

metropoj Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:56 am

I apologise if I have missed something in the posts here but these products are all on the inside and seem like a fantastic idea. I love that white Monstaliner finish.

I just had my entire engine bay and area above the transmission media blasted, Por 'prep and ready', then POR-15 Gray 2 coats to seal it all up.

Of course, the insulation atop the tranny is NOT returning :)

Would you guys recommend using any type of covering over the Por-15 underneath or just leave it open and attach the sound barriers as done here from the top side.

I'd hate to commit to fluid firm or rustcheck or ? and then kick myself for not doing something else more permanent first.

I also still have the large interior 'insulating blanket' that my 82 Diesel came with. It fits over the inside of the rear hatch and all behind the seat. I may just use that for the time being.

insyncro Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:16 am

Wurth Body Seal or Noxudol 300s over the rust encapsulator products for the exterior.
The Lizard Skin products work best when applied to the interior of panels.

metropoj Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:25 am

Yes, the Wurth product. I do now remember it being mentioned :( Sorry about that ...

Thanks for recommendation. I really appreciate the time you've invested documenting your excellent work and reasons for doing so along the way.

insyncro Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:26 am

My pleasure, thank you.

Microbusdeluxe Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:21 pm

Taking apart the interior to continue with my Lizard skin application I got a couple of surprises.

The rear hatch has two 1/8" thick stainless steel panels screwed onto it. So
either the previous owner was a secret agent who required bullet proof shielding or syncro 16s all have this or do all the water boxers have this? Any knowledge would be illuminating.

I knew the 16 would have these welded panels and hoped I could just shove the nozzle in and spray away. Unfortunately, Hans and Fritz got there first and shot a kilo of Waxoyl into the panel. From what little I know of the Lizard Skin, it's not going to stick to this.

The two panels which are accessible are also Waxolyed, but unfortunately also have some rust at the bottom right on the seam. This leads to a real dilemma. Does anyone have an opinion on the feasibility of cutting out the welds, cleaning up everything, treating the rust, spraying the Lizards and then welding it back up. The crux being can it be welded without affecting the paint on the exterior?

Weigh in on opinions and ideas.

insyncro Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:56 am

Wax products are great for the underside, but where bodywork is needed they can really be a pain.

Honestly, I am not sure what to recommend to do.
If you really want the Lizard or any other spray barrier applied in these locations, chemicals must be used to strip the wax.
Than Ospho or another rust convertor could be used to transform the rust and give it a seal that will help with adhesion of layered products.
Even Ospho must be made inert after being applied with more chemicals, water or steam so access to the areas is a must.
Tough call on the welded in panels.

luVWagn Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:11 am

metropoj wrote: Yes, the Wurth product. I do now remember it being mentioned :( Sorry about that ...

Thanks for recommendation. I really appreciate the time you've invested documenting your excellent work and reasons for doing so along the way.
+1! Threads like this make Dylan awesome possum :)
I'm looking forward to doing a bunch of something to my Syncro 16, which has the plastic formed covering in the cab area, with nothing underneath it - no underpad, no nothin'. This van is SUPER loud, especially with the TDI grumbling away. I thought my sporty Suby 2.5 was loud, but this thing takes the cake.

After completing the cab area (including dash-pull to swap for a padded dash), i'll tackle areas in the back and will be interesting to see what I find behind my various panels as well.

Steve M. Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:21 am

The welded in triangle panels are just Tack-welds. If you really wanted to go to the trouble and have the time to do it, cut the welds and remove the panels. You can grind the welds down flat and re-install the panels after the lizard skin application. Then your going to need a welder to tack them back into place.
This what I would do, but that's me. It's up to you if you want to do it.
the question is: Is it worth it?
You know the answer!
It's a lot of work though.

Merian Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:49 pm

I think I'd leave it as is, except for treating the rust. Sound from the rear should not be nearly as large an issue as from the front.

I also suspect that wind & tire noise will dominate over anything from the rear (other than the motor and trans.).

Why not leave it as is for now and take a few test runs down the hwy - get someone else to drive and move around from front to back while at speed - or use multiple mics set in different areas.

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