TheSamba.com :: View topic - 'Let's Go! Scotland-Croatia and onwards in our Kombi!'

Thu May 04, 2017 6:58 am

[quote="mcdonaldneal"I did notice that the outer CV boot is badly torn :oops:, so I'm guessing the next job is going to be a very messy driveshaft removal, inspection and regreasing. Another 'too scary' job, that I'm a bit anxious about :shock: .[/quote]

I understand the anxiety of removing the axles, as I just did it the first time a few weeks ago. But in spite of the complexity of the CVs and the importance to get everything working right, it's a pretty straight-forward job. Just prepare to get disgustingly dirty and greasy during the process. :lol:

Thu May 04, 2017 8:10 am

TDCTDI wrote: I'm kinda surprised that the transmission shop didn't address or notify you about the CV boot issue while the trans was out.

Yes, me too!

Anyhow, the good news is, I have replacement boots that are supposed to be of reasonable quality.
The bad news is, I have put the bus up on ramps and, gently inspecting the inner boot on the other side, it split at a fold very very easily :evil:. At least it had grease in it!
The other bad news is that the CV bolts at the wheel end are totally solid :cry:. Penetrating oil and an old fashioned impact driver have absolutely failed to budge them, and even if I get one or two free, the others are even less accessible.
My thought is maybe to get the local garage to remove the driveshafts complete, and maybe I can clean and inspect them at home. I would rather be able to do it myself but from the look of the slightly damaged hex sockets I could be in for a frustrating time getting them off. (I did clean out the sockets before trying a tool on them :wink: !)

Thu May 04, 2017 8:21 am

Use a small screwdriver or pick to clean the grime out of the bolt heads

use a new 6mm allen socket ( so it's less likely to strip the bolt heads & it's really difficult to hammer the allen wrenches with the 90* in them), hammer it into the bolt head (this will ensure that the socket is all the way in the head & it will shock the bolt & help loosen it (I use a 48oz BFH, don't be afraid to give it hell, just keep your fingers out of the way.).). To get to the other bolts, rotate the wheel until the bolt head is accessible.

If you still feel that the bolt head is starting to strip, grab the outside of the bolt head with a good pair of Vice-grips & turn in unison with the wrench with the allen socket.

If all that fails, buy a quality T45 Torx bit & hammer that into the bolt head, the VW bolts are soft (thus the ease in which they strip.) and after a few good strikes, youll feel the Torx bit bottom out in the bolt head & you now have a Torx socket head bolt.

Thu May 04, 2017 9:07 am

Check out my build, I drilled mine out with great success. A drill bit fits perfectly into the hex hole and it is easy not to touch the CV. Then once you have the bolts drilled out, you can easily remove the CV Axle and grip what is left with vise grips and twist off. The grease from the CV has prevented rust at the threads, so the corrosion holding them on is just at the bolt head. Very short job to drill them, I wish I had gone to it sooner.

Remember to replace with good quality CV bolts. I think I actually purchased bolts for a new VW CV for around $15-$20, and they are the same. I got the idea because my 04 Passat has the same bolts.

Thu May 04, 2017 9:13 am

Thanks TDCTDI, and Spike, good advice indeed. I had got as far as cleaning the sockets with a screwdriver and steel brush, hammering the allen bit into it and bashing with the hammer. As I was on ramps, I couldn't rotate the wheel, so next step would have been jack and axle stands and batter away.
Alternatively... I took a spin to the local garage, which was almost closing and came up with a plan. They will loosen the bolts but leave everything in place, so I can drive home and complete the disassembly. It needs to wait a couple of days though, because of work commitments.

I dug out the gaiter kits I picked up a couple of years ago. I was surprised (and pleased!) to see they are genuine VW, and there is a boot, six bolts with serrated washers and a sealing clip, as well as the grease.
I'll get ready to get my hands dirty!

Thu May 04, 2017 9:24 am

mcdonaldneal wrote: Thanks TDCTDI, and Spike, good advice indeed. I had got as far as cleaning the sockets with a screwdriver and steel brush, hammering the allen bit into it and bashing with the hammer. As I was on ramps, I couldn't rotate the wheel, so next step would have been jack and axle stands and batter away.
Alternatively... I took a spin to the local garage, which was almost closing and came up with a plan. They will loosen the bolts but leave everything in place, so I can drive home and complete the disassembly. It needs to wait a couple of days though, because of work commitments.

I dug out the gaiter kits I picked up a couple of years ago. I was surprised (and pleased!) to see they are genuine VW, and there is a boot, six bolts with serrated washers and a sealing clip, as well as the grease.
I'll get ready to get my hands dirty!

Nice. But if those are the hex key bolts, I'd purchase some genuine vw 12 points. The metal hardness is significant! Though, as I say that I have a few hex bolts in mine I believe.

Thu May 04, 2017 9:39 am

Just a few hints on how to reduce frustration, waste & how much CV grease that you end up wearing. Mark the direction of the joints, the side that bolts to the flanges needs to remain out. Remove the CV joint from the shaft, run a zip tie through the center of the joint & over the outer race of the joint to avoid letting the joint fall apart ( they love to fall apart but they'll fight going back together).

Get a shallow pan that you can lay the CV joint down in, get a couple of cans of brake parts cleaner (do not use gasoline or kerosene, it leaves a film that the keeps the grease from coating the surfaces like it should.) & spray the CV joint down & clean the joint with a brush. Once most of the grease is off, you can hose off the rest straight from the can while catching what drains off in your pan to reuse on the other joints.

Let the joint dry while you repeat on the other joint. Replace the boots on the axle & then re-install the CVs. Cut just the tip off your grease packet so that it's like you're trying to ice a cake & inject the grease straight into the bearings & cage, if you push the grease pack into the joint, it seals against the joint & you can squeeze the grease straight through the joint & into the boot on the other side ensuring that the joint is fully packed.

Thu May 04, 2017 11:02 am

Phil,

I don't know if it's the angle of the photo but that drum looks pretty heavily worn where the brake pads wear against it. Next time you have it off, you may consider getting it mic'd to insure it's not REALLY undersized as they can crack when they get that way.

I've seen a lot of VW's over the years that the previous owners ran the brake pads on metal on metal and severely wore the drums undersized.

Thu May 04, 2017 11:57 am

wcfvw69 wrote:
Phil,

I don't know if it's the angle of the photo but that drum looks pretty heavily worn where the brake pads wear against it. Next time you have it off, you may consider getting it mic'd to insure it's not REALLY undersized as they can crack when they get that way.

I've seen a lot of VW's over the years that the previous owners ran the brake pads on metal on metal and severely wore the drums undersized.

Cheers Bill, thanks. I'll do that when I get the chance. The current pads had plenty of meat on them, and the bus has been generally well cared for, so I'm optimistic, but as you suggest, better safe!

TDCTDI, thanks for your really practical advice. I'm reading around the dreaded task, secretly looking forward to having it done, but trying to get my head around it so it goes as smoothly as possible :D !

I've ordered the triple square, splined bolts for when the axles go back on.

Sat May 06, 2017 7:19 am

I thought I'd post a progress report while I have lunch, having been elbow deep in CV joints for the last few hours :D !
I started the day gathering the things I needed; plenty of gloves and paper towels, a redundant disposable surgical gown from work, hammers, punches, circlip pliers, paraffin, aqueous solvent, isopropyl alcohol for cleaning etc etc.

Then I took a trip to the local garage, where the guy kindly loosened all my solid CV bolts (much easier on the ramp than under the bus!) and then I drove home and scrabbled about under the bus to remove one driveshaft. Disassembly and cleaning has gone more or less as planned. Driving one inner race off the shaft needed a punch and a great deal of hammering :evil:.
One joint looks to be a Lobro original, one boot seems to be reusable and the other joint has the dished washer which was supposed to be discontinued in 1975 (according to Bentley :? ).
The condition doesn't seem too bad. I'll have a proper look once they're all cleaned up.

Sat May 06, 2017 7:48 am

Replace all the boots and keep the one that is "still good" as a spare.

Sat May 06, 2017 9:22 am

Thanks richparker, it looks as though I might have two good ones, now I've managed to take the other driveshaft off. I'll inspect everything before I make a final decision, but it's likely I'll go for all new boots.
On the other hand, I could put the intact old ones back on and when they burst, use it as a chance to regrease!... Pretty sure I won't want to do that any time soon :roll:!

I've run out of time today, but I now have two cleaned up joints that look pretty good. I've removed the second driveshaft, but haven't done anything with it yet, other than put the ends in bags.

Two questions:
I have read suggestions that you can rotate the position of the cv joints to even out wear, but that means swapping the joints to the other side of the bus (ie the other axle). Our bus is Automatic, so I think the driveshafts are different lengths. Can anyone think of a reason NOT to do this when I reinstall?
I plan to spray the driveshafts with black Rustoleum type paint. Should I stop at the boot junction, or just before the splines start?

Possibly no right answer to either of these :? !

Sun May 07, 2017 12:37 am

As a slightly strange point of information, my right hand drive shaft has the two ridges at each end for the boot to slip over, but the transmission end has another ridge, nearer the centre of the shaft.
I wonder if that's for orientation, or if it has some purpose?

Sun May 07, 2017 2:16 am

Not sure about the ridges! Hopefully someone else can pipe in.

This is a brilliant reference image from Tcash / Ratwell that I use for orientation when cleaning and changing CV joints:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7745894

Also, read the really helpful comments and advice given to me here by Desertbusman and Wildthings on the direction of the circlip (sharp edge towards the end of the driveshaft):

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6587256

I Don't want to put a downer on your NOS boots, but you can read my experiences of them here and my ongoing tests of CV boots in general, from page 9 through to 12 here:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...;start=160

I would advise brand new (expensive I'm afraid!) German made genuine VW CV boots, from VW Heritage, and use the serrated washers from your NOS kits, and the modern torx type bolts rather than the allen bolts.

Sun May 07, 2017 2:35 am

Thanks chimneyfish, some good links there which I will read later (I'm on a short break!)
I see this morning that the other driveshaft also has the extra ridge at the trans end. Maybe it's Auto specific??
One clean job before the dirty work. The driveshaft had light rust up to the splines, the grease maybe didn't get right under the boot. I've rust treated and am putting down a couple of coats of paint.
Hope you like my artisanal painting supports!

Sun May 07, 2017 4:26 am

I read your thread from time to time, but have not read every page so I have probably missed some cool stuff. I haven't posted any thoughts mostly because I just don't have anything to add. You are pretty thorough, and you are in a part of the world I know nothing about, so it is hard for me to really identify with your travels. However, I do think it is great that you continue to make great use out of your bus! The only VW in my fleet that actually works properly right now is my '87 so it's inspiring to see Baywindows out there rolling out the kilometers and miles!

The last few posts have really piqued my interest. It appears to me by the ridge showing on your drum that it is beyond the condemning limits. Take a serious approach to this matter and have it measured from the worn area where the shoes mate to the drum, and not that ridge! You have already stated this is a scary area for you, but you did put your big boy pants on and are now ass deep in an obviously needed stretch of maintenance. :lol:

:arrow: You would be quite wise to do a thorough brake job, including your front brakes and master cylinder. Your brake booster diaphragm is likely equally dated, and you should consider that as a near-term maintenance item as well.

I make the above statements based solely on the two photos you provide that show me:

1. Worn and potentially hazardous brake drums that may suffer heat cracking because they are thin.

2. Aged wheel cylinders that probably have seals that have very little life in them.

3. Star adjusters that are probably seized preventing you from easily adjusting your probably worn out brake shoes.

4. You live in a part of the world that sees more ambient moisture than where I live, so I would bet your parking brake cables have a lot of rust. Take a close look at that situation.

Front brakes not yet seen: More of the same, but with a disc brake theme.

CV Joints:

I had never seen or heard of the zip-tie method, but if that works for you, then great! I always completely disassemble mine so I can make a thorough inspection, but I never mix up the parts from one CV joint to another. Reassembling the CV joints is part of the fun... like trying to pick the locks of that girl in the back seat! :twisted:

The automatic transmissions do have one side drive shaft shorter. Pretty easy to figure this out when you reinstall, because it just ain't gonna fit but where it belongs! Maybe that is the answer for the extra ridge, but you can always wrap a piece of wire around one and make a note which side it was removed from. Paint them to protect from rust, just like you did.

DON'T put hex head (Allen socket) cap screws back in there! :evil: You will be dealing with the same crime you just dealt with a few years from now. Seek out the correct 12-point screws:

http://www.van-cafe.com/page_1021_336/cv-joint-bolt-kit-12pak-with-tool

See how cheap the entire set of screws, washers and tool is? Don't re-use the old stuff.

Tip: I made a tripod mated to a pipe vise for pipe fitting/plumbing work years ago. It's perfect for holding drive assemblies for just this kind of work. Some larger bench vises have a pipe vise crotch below the flat vise faces. Your blue one might, but it looks a bit small for that. Take a look anyway.

Don't be shy on the grease, but don't be an idiot thinking you need to fill the boot with grease like I've read people doing. That's a dust boot and nothing more.

You will need a torque wrench to properly seat the new cap screws (you won't want to reuse old screws or the serrated washers as the screws are now stretched and the serrated washers a little flatter) and you will REALLY want that wheel to turn freely while you torque the screws down in the correct even pattern. Trying to do that with the wheel stationary is a real pain in the ass... think about getting the socket and torque wrench up there where the driveshaft impedes you.

I always have the bus/bug lifted, tighten the screws by hand and rotate the tire so I always have the convenience of working on the screw that is down around the 6 o'clock position. Then I begin the torque process at 6 o'clock. I rotate 180* and do the next one and so forth.

When it comes time to torque them down, I jam my knee under the tread of the tire and use my leg muscles to and heel dug into the pavement to keep the tire from rotating while I begin the torque process. Press hard with the leg as you do that final torque. I repeat this after 100 miles. It might sound dangerous, but really, you have this up on jack stands gambling with your life for air-cooled freedom, so what's a little more juice at this point? And hell, have some more bread with bleu cheese and sausage while you're down there. It's kind of relaxing looking up at the power plant, anyway.

Keep posting! :D

Sun May 07, 2017 1:59 pm

Man, this site really is amazing!
Thanks so much to Chimneyfish and Wasted youth for adding much more practical detail to the CV joint process. This is one task where there is a lot of info out there to be read, and real life advice is really appreciated. Apologies if I end up diverting from any of the wise words in my confusion :? ,
Chimneyfish, that is a bugger about the NOS boots :cry: . My best option at the moment is probably to go with them, but be prepared to have to go through the process again fairly soon. I'm hoping my splined bolts arrive tomorrow, so at least I won't have to redo those :roll: .
Wasted youth, you are opening a can of worms, probably quite correctly, about the braking system overhaul. I will check the thickness of the drum while I am jacking up and down for the CVs and I'll pencil in a bigger overhaul soon.

My only consolation is that the bus has been reasonably well looked after, compared to some, so at least most things are working more or less as they should!

Sun May 07, 2017 2:17 pm

A quick rundown of what was done today:
Both driveshafts painted.
All cv joints removed and cleaned now. First inspection suggests that they are all reusable, but I'm going to look more closely tomorrow.
Two old boots of unknown make are cleaned and intact and will be kept as spares for potential failure.

One cv joint was a total bastard to get off the shaft, and turned out to have been installed backwards, which might have damaged the splines. Also, the splines may have been damaged by the vigorous hammering with a punch and chisel that had to be done to get the inner race off the end of the shaft. I hope to have a new GKN cv joint and splined bolts arriving tomorrow, and if I need to use that instead of the battered one, I will.

The backwards joint removal went as follows:
The metal boot cap was tapped off the joint. You can see that the single line is facing the boot (and shaft) which was the opposite of all my others. It is a Lobro joint.

Copious amounts of grease removed with wooden spatulas and towels...

You see how much (normal) up and down movement there is in the joint. I found it easiest to remove the outer race and balls before the battering commenced to drive the inner race from the shaft. After it was off, I cleaned up the splines with a needle file, sandpaper and a wire wheel, before thorough cleaning.

Sun May 07, 2017 3:41 pm

Sweat equity for sure!

I think you will find the CV joint is a robust design and you will likely be able to reuse them for many more years. When I serviced mine on my 1987 the grease was litterally a dried, caked mess of dung. Couldn't fuggin believe it. It was like they were never serviced at all. Yet, when I got rid of all the monkey poo grease I found surprising little wear of galling. I've put probably another 13,000 miles on them since without issues. That was just about a year and a half ago, I figure.

Mon May 08, 2017 2:32 am

As you can tell, I'm really taking my time over these Cv joints. Day three so far :roll: !
Couple of pics here, first the different axle lengths for the Automatic. Not totally obvious because of perspective. Each axle has a triple ridge/band at the transmission end.
The old boots that are good are different. Different heights and, interestingly, the small ends are different diameters. The usual is to put a clamp or tie on this end. My thinking is that the boot is mainly a dust cap, so the clamp shouldn't be super tight, to allow a bit of rotation, if needed with joint movement. Might help with stress on the boot itself.