TheSamba.com :: View topic

Sat Apr 05, 2025 10:30 am

Hi everyone, I used to frequent this site 5-10 years ago and really learned a lot and appreciate the resource. I've been working on a body off restoration and when I set the body down onto the pan yesterday (no bolts) it confirmed to me that there was a small gap at the passenger side "napoleon hat", right where there are two bolts next to each other. I noticed a height difference when I had the pan up on a rotisserie, just by eye balling it. Rough measurement shows its about a half inch lower on the passenger side in the region circled in yellow. Other than that, body sits nice and flat and all the holes line up well, which I was happy to see because I've replaced the pans, passenger side A-pillar, and even removed all of the rotted heater channels to save some weight.

I can squeeze it together somewhat by hand and I can close the gap relatively easily with a small screw clamp, but its mostly pulling the body down which isn't ideal. Is this significant enough to affect handling and should I attempt to bend the napoleon hat up to close the gap, or just let it go? It's going to be a performance oriented car for street, strip, and track but not wheel to wheel racing.

I have a clean title for it so I don't think its been in a wreck and its been off the road for like 30 years. But I will say there are some things on this car that make me think it was made on a Mon morning or Friday afternoon, so I don't know if its within acceptable tolerances/ variation.

Sat Apr 05, 2025 1:53 pm

Sat Apr 05, 2025 5:26 pm

Get the pan gasket in there. The body may shift slightly with it in play, minimizing the gap.

Those bolts will pull that A pillar down. So, knowing that, be sure to adjust for it. If you can not work it out, you may need to go back over what is actually out. Maybe the left rear mount is too low and the body is tilting that direction. If it were me, I would try it per stock set up and, utilizing shims, see what and where, changes are needed.

Good luck!

Sat Apr 05, 2025 8:30 pm

When you tighten down the body tighten down that side before you do the left one. It should be ok. Just watch your door gaps also.

Sat Apr 05, 2025 11:30 pm

Have you tried working that area of the pan channel to raise it? Admittedly that’s a stiffer area compared to the longer sides but it’s worth giving it a try. My pan channel edges had several low areas (“dips”) including sections of the side channels that were bent down and rolled out. I was able to raise and level these areas using pieces of 1x wood strips and heavy clamps attached both outside and inside the channels as needed.

Sun Apr 06, 2025 12:08 am

I'm willing to try but I'm not sure how to secure it well enough that it doesn't just pick up off the ground. I will be welding those tubes to the napoleon hat section and the rear torsion tubes so after that it will basically be locked in.

Sun Apr 06, 2025 5:31 am

You don’t have lift the pan or put any upward force on the pan as an entity, just the specific area you are working. Imagine a strong steel clamp used as a hydraulic press. In your case, I would place a short piece of sturdy wood up inside the channel in the low area. Then another piece above it on the top of the pan channel, a bit longer and/or wider, to pick up additional rigid pan area. In other words, make pan sandwich, the two pieces of wood are the bread slices and the low area of the pan is the baloney. Or hummus if you prefer. Then using one or two (as big and sturdy as will fit) clamps, squeeze the two pieces of wood together slowly, observing the pan as you go.

Sun Apr 06, 2025 2:17 pm

I see where you’re going. I put the torsion tubes on jack stands and a jack under the frame head like a tripod, checked level in a bunch of places, and the difference is now more like 1/16-1/8” at most. Rear looks fine too, I’m getting no more than 1/16” side to side anywhere. So I decided to let it go as is and carry on.

Sun Apr 06, 2025 3:04 pm

Oh I get ya. My ‘66 project (still underway) puzzle list included placing a level in the front of the car where the gas tank lip sits, and the level bubble always indicated passenger side high despite my attempts to level the car front and back. That is, until I separated the rusted front bulkhead (up under the dash) repair from the kluged passenger side heater channel done by a PO. As soon as the last weld was cut, the car body tweaked and the level bubble centered.
Note to all, to heck with worrying about warping a panel when welding in new panels. Be more concerned about warping the car body.

Mon Apr 07, 2025 7:05 pm

Today I started making some clamps to bolt onto the lower beam tube and when I mocked it all up it’s looking like the beam is a little bit twisted or bent. Notice how the driver side tube is high but the passenger side lands dead on. I leveled the pan out with some shims and it’s the beam/ pan head that’s clearly off. Not really sure what to do.

Mon Apr 07, 2025 9:13 pm

Consider taking your pan to a frame shop that will rack the frame on their table and bend it straight. it needs to be fixed in my opinion.

Mon Apr 07, 2025 11:09 pm

Any ideas on who can do it and what it would cost?

Tue Apr 08, 2025 4:35 am

Is that the original frame head? Are there any welds up front that do not look to be factory original? In your first photo I see evidence of such but that may just be some tack repair. I ask because if a PO replaced the front crossmember or frame head without ensuring everything stayed square and level that could be the problem.

Tue Apr 08, 2025 9:51 am

I didn't see anything obvious, but what do I know its only my second VW. Have a look.

In the first photo the only asymmetrical thing are the two spot welds near where the brake master cylinder goes. There's also a good dent/ crease.

The second photo is the underside which I noticed when I had it on the rotisserie. Kind of a bird shit weld with a small hole and spatter. But it seemed like it was all painted over from the factory that way. One of the reasons I think its a Monday car.

Tue Apr 08, 2025 10:02 am

EnjoyNukaCola wrote: Any ideas on who can do it and what it would cost?
Take it to Washburn...
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2435829
https://washburnsmetal.com/chassis-work

Tue Apr 08, 2025 11:08 am

56Cabrio wrote:
Take it to Washburn...
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2435829
https://washburnsmetal.com/chassis-work
Never heard of them but it looks like they do some top work, expensive. To tell you the truth I bought this car knowing its a basket case so I could learn the process and maybe start up a similar type of speed shop someday, so outsourcing the work doesn't really teach me anything or get me closer to that goal.

I could bolt the hat section to the concrete floor and weld 2x3x1/8 beam to the pan head and just go at it slow with a floor jack. Wouldn't cost more than $100 and I got time...

Tue Apr 08, 2025 2:02 pm

I’m no vintage Bug expert either but I doubt the front crossmember could cause the frame head to twist. Providing the frame head was in its factory welded situ when any crossmember repairs were performed, if any were. It could, however, cause level problems with the pan channels. I see what I believe to be a mix of factory and PO welds in your latest pictures. Did you remove the seam sealer from the frame head to center spine weld area? And can you post a picture of the inside of the frame head showing the weld attachment area?

Tue Apr 08, 2025 2:54 pm

I think I removed some sealer there, but not everywhere. Definitely removed it all in the interior. Here’s a before photo.

Tue Apr 08, 2025 10:37 pm

I doubt those blobs of weld or the spatter are from the factory. But the frame head doesn’t appear to be a replacement either. The bottom line is what is a functional and cost effective approach to resolve your situation. I have found it’s tricky to find anywhere on my bug to place a level and trust that particular spot is really flat AND that the car is even supposed to be level at that location. Sometimes I catch myself shimming to level then realizing now I’m not level somewhere else on the car where I probably need to be. If that’s the way the car was built. Or if not, if it even matters.
Circling back to your original post, if the pan was/is a bit low up front on the passenger side and a replacement front crossmember was welded to the pan up there, depending upon what sequence the welder connected the crossmember to the pan, then it is quite possible that’s why your tube resting on the driver side would be higher than the tube on the passenger side, especially the further the tubes extend out from the crossmember. Were this my problem I would level the pan, remove the front crossmember and fix the low pan channel area up front on the passenger side- or if just not possible without great cost and pain, shim the replacement crossmember level with the driver side- then temporarily tack in the replacement crossmember and recheck everything. If the extension tubes still don’t line up to the front axle tube, then it’s time to consider either messing with the frame head- or consider the safety and functional consequences of simply placing a slight downward bend in the driver side tube beginning beyond the front crossmember so it lines up square with the front axle tube. Bear in mind your tubes that will be replacing the factory heater channels travel out to the front axle beam, and the factory heater channels do not- they terminate at the front bulkhead A small deviation that is otherwise unnoticed and possibly irrelevant in a stock configuration is revealed by modifications such as yours.

Wed Apr 09, 2025 10:12 am

No kidding, nothing is flat on these cars. The best place is probably the torsion tubes, placing a level across each one or averaging them both out but its splitting hairs at that point. In my case the area above the serial number jives with the torsion tubes, and its a stamped piece which should be relatively consistent. I think the rear shock towers are not a good reference (like I had showed) because its a rough surface and unsupported. At the frame head, a level placed directly on top right up against the bent up edges matches the beam angle, so that's a pretty good point of reference.

I looked around on some other sites and it could be SO much worse. My baja bug in the back which I posted a lot on here previously is most definitely tweaked after some hard off roading because I noticed one of the doors was harder to open and close and its not caged or reinforced at all. :lol:

If I had to guess the car hit a really good pot hole or bump and twisted the pan head and maybe the cross member a little bit. It's numbers matching body/ pan/ title so nothing has been moved around and probably wasn't wrecked given original paint. I'm pretty confident in being able to twist the pan head counter clockwise a little bit. And then the tubes will add additional support and I think I'll even support the shock towers. I think if I try to cut off the frame head entirely I could just make it worse. I can also consider slicing into the frame head in strategic points if it does not yield per plan A and then weld it back up.