TheSamba.com :: View topic - The fuel line clamps don't work, going back to screw clamps

Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:38 pm

This is the saga continued from this thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=608083
which was continued from an even earlier thread.

What I done so far:
--replaced the hose clamps on the fuel line with fuel line clamps, because it was pointed out that hose clamps were wrong. I noticed that they don't seem to hold as tight before they start just bending up, but I figured they should hold well enough.
--I opened up the fuel pump and it had rust chips in it, so I bought a new fuel pump.
--I also bought another fuel line filter to put right before the fuel pump, just as a temporary measure. Also this let me see if the fuel was getting that far or not,,,, and it wasn't.

By looking at the (clear plastic) engine-bay fuel filter, I can see that the new fuel pump would not draw fuel.
So I guess maybe it needs to be primed? So I used the shop air to blow a small bit of air into the gas tank, to force the fuel up to the fuel pump.
And that sort-of works, because now there is some fuel in the engine bay filter.....
But also there is fuel on the ground from leaks in the fuel line, where I TOOK OFF the screw clamps and put fuel line clamps on......

Note that I did not try to start the car now, because I did not know all the places the fuel leaked from. I'm just gonna let it air out for a day before getting under it again. ;)

So here is what I am thinking:
1) this is a European car, with metric measures
2) the new rubber fuel line is quarter-inch ID, made for fitting onto 1/4-inch hard line
3) the bug's HARD fuel line measures about 6.15mm OD, and is probably intended to be used with hose that has an ID of 6mm.....
-and that is why-
4) the fuel line clamps don't squeeze hard enough for this combination of hard and soft fuel lines.

The hard fuel line diameter would need to be 6.35mm for it to be equal to a quarter-inch, but it is only 6.15mm. And the fuel line clamps can't tighten hard enough to take up the slack.

This could also be why so many people have the gasoline smell, but no obvious leaks. Because the fuel line connections are all slowly weeping.

--------

Another problem here is that all fuel line isn't the same.....
Through this episode I ended up buying sections of soft fuel line at two different auto parts stores, and the two lines were not the same. They were quarter-inch ID but one was for a higher pressure than the other. The higher-pressure one was also considerably HARDER than the lower-pressure one. The softer of the two has a pressure rating of 3.4 bar, and the harder one is 6.5 bar IIRC.

Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:26 pm

A mechanical pump is going to have a hard time drawing fuel thru a filter. If your tank has rust in it, you are better off getting that taken care off and placing the filter between the pump and carb.

Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:43 pm

ps2375 wrote: A mechanical pump is going to have a hard time drawing fuel thru a filter. If your tank has rust in it, you are better off getting that taken care off and placing the filter between the pump and carb.
In a previous thread it was noted that the only fuel filter should be one under the tank. And there is one there.

There is no rust in the tank, because I put in a new tank, filter under the tank & sending unit myself. And I rinsed the inside of the tank with toluene a couple times and then with acetone a couple times before installing it, so there isn't any cosmoline clogging the filters.

The rubber hose sections are all new and now the fuel pump is new.... it's just those clamps. I took off a few screw clamps and replaced them with genuine fuel line clamps. And the spots where the rubber hose is clamped to the hard line is where the leaks are.

The filter I put in the engine bay is just temporary. I was going to remove that filter once I drove the car a bit and all the fine stuff was gone from the fuel lines.

Wed Oct 08, 2014 3:02 pm

I'm not sure which "fuel line" clamps you're speaking about, but I used some fuel injection clamps in a few spots on my car, and they work very well. They're just metal bands, and screws clamp the band together to tighten it, similar in style to the generator/alternator clamp.

For example:
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/MHC0/MP52...;ppt=C0075

I ran into the binding and bending problem you mentioned when I used a size that was too big. Switching to a smaller clamp fixed that and they grab nice and tight. Fuel injection is rated 60+ PSI, so if you use the right size clamp, you shouldn't have any troubles with leaking.

Wed Oct 08, 2014 3:32 pm

If you use the right clamps and the right size it will work fine. If you're using stock braided hose you really don't require clamps but I use them anyway

http://www.ultimategarage.com/shop/index.php?cPath=309&osCsid=gvpgpptvmvat4p8rc333hmlur2

Wed Oct 08, 2014 5:59 pm

1/4" fuel line is too large for stock VW carb and fuel pump fittings. Use the correct 5mm iD size line, like this.
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111209185

Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:36 pm

You mean the original German line that's not ethanol resistant?

Think twice about that.

Insert Glens image of no degredation bellow and let the debate start. :lol:

I personally think we should convert our lines to something that is ethanol resistant. That probably means changing the hard line or fitting some sort of compression fitting adapter to the stock line. I've looked quite a bit and never found hose in the proper size and rated for ethanol and approved for automotive use.

Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:05 pm

All fuel hoses are now ethanol safe, as of several years ago. This costs more. A lot of auto-parts stores sell you breather hose because they have skipped the training to tell the difference.

1/4 can clamp to the line in the tunnel, it's not perfect but it will work. IMO, use two hose clamps.

Cheap fuel pumps are a huge waste of time money and human effort.
Good fuel pump or electric cost almost the same, buy whichever you prefer.

Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:08 pm

The correct line size is 5.5mm ID.

Part of the problem with the new braided hose is that it is the wrong size.

Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:11 pm

xBigDx408x wrote: ....I ran into the binding and bending problem you mentioned when I used a size that was too big. Switching to a smaller clamp fixed that and they grab nice and tight. Fuel injection is rated 60+ PSI, so if you use the right size clamp, you shouldn't have any troubles with leaking.
That is the kind I got. They don't squeeze hard enough, at least in this use (of trying to use English rubber hose on metric hard fittings).

BUGGED11111 wrote: If you use the right clamps and the right size it will work fine. If you're using stock braided hose you really don't require clamps but I use them anyway
That link requires an account to login with, so I don't know what it was supposed to show.
And the normal 1/4-inch line won't stay on the hard fuel lines without a clamp.... Aint no way.
But the rubber being 1/4-inch ID and the metal lines being made for 6mm explains it.

vwkirb wrote: You mean the original German line that's not ethanol resistant?
Think twice about that. ...
Yea, I don't think that's gonna work either.

I think what I may try to do is find some sleeves to use on the ends of the hard lines. All it would take is a short section (1-inch?) of a fuel-resistant tubing that has an ID of 6mm and a wall thickness of .5mm or so.
,,,,,,,,
You don't need to replace the whole entire rubber lines, you just need to make sure that the ends fit snug on the metal fittings that are a bit too small.

Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:15 pm

I don't understand...
Why can't you just use the right size line & clamps?

Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:18 pm

modok wrote: All fuel hoses are now ethanol safe, as of several years ago. This costs more. A lot of auto-parts stores sell you breather hose because they have skipped the training to tell the difference.
Even fuel line sold for the German market? Or did you mean what was sold in the USA.
Also both of the fuel line hose I bought has the specs printed on it; it says that it is fuel line.

Quote: 1/4 can clamp to the line in the tunnel, it's not perfect but it will work. IMO, use two hose clamps.
It is funny that you mention this, because that is exactly what they did in a couple spots. And I took those off and tried to use a single fuel line clamp instead....

Quote: Cheap fuel pumps are a huge waste of time money and human effort.
Good fuel pump or electric cost almost the same, buy whichever you prefer.
I noticed all the ones I found online were not identical to the German one. The one I got was only $22 tho.
Does anywhere still sell the German ones?

Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:33 pm

borninabus wrote: I don't understand...
Why can't you just use the right size line & clamps?
Who sells it?
In this thread there is a link to Belmetric-
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...p;start=20
but now they only show 5mm and 6mm line, not the 5.5mm.
And none of the other metric lines people posted in that thread seemed to be ethanol-rated.

Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:01 pm

First, I have 40 year old non ethanol rated lines that have been full of ethanol fuel since ethanol came out and no leaks. Is someone experiencing leaky fuel lines due to ethanol? I haven't seen the mentioned report and debate but actually just wondering if it's a practical or theoretical problem? I bought 6 ft of original style braided line and just replaced from the tank to the carb with a lot left over, not due to leaks but I'm just going through the whole car refreshing everything. The line fits the hard line perfectly tight but I still used clamps for peace of mind.

Second, if your are in St Louis try these guys that seem to have a good selection of parts
http://www.archwayauto.com/parts.htm
......Or one of the other 10 local classic VW parts suppliers near you that came up in a quick web search for your area. The best thing from visiting a local parts shop is you usually see some cool vdubs, get some great ideas and usually some good advice. Plus no waiting on the ups guy.

They are everywhere online
Rubber?
http://www.germansupply.com/home/customer/product.php?productid=17485
Sheathed?
http://www.mamotorworks.com/VW/product/fuel-hose-5-5mm-353709
Whatever size, rating and type you prefer.....just do a search.

Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:23 pm

A few things I've learned along the way that may or not be helpful at this point:

Pushrods for the fuel pump- I never seem to have the right one, now I carry spares in different lengths just in case I have to switch out a pump and it requires a different pushrod. Short rod = no pressure. Long rod = no installie.

On fuel line- from the tank to the pump is the low pressure side. If you only have two clamps- put them between the pump and the carb.

On the fuel filter- if you've done your job replacing line- you've already replaced your sock filter in the tank. If you haven't done so- everything you try to do or filter downstream will be futile.

The fuel pump's filter screen could have an adult male tabby stuck in there for all you know if you haven't opened it.

Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:30 pm

DougC0414 wrote:
I noticed all the ones I found online were not identical to the German one. The one I got was only $22 tho.
Does anywhere still sell the German ones?
not sure. The OE ones are rebuildable, and have four screws on top. A few years ago they were fetching 80$ new, and the place I know of that sold them went under. German supply looks bleak.

Carter is a respected brand, look for part number m60175. It has one screw on top like a 40 horse fuel pump.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crt-m60175

Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:43 pm

Her74buggy wrote: First, I have 40 year old non ethanol rated lines that have been full of ethanol fuel since ethanol came out and no leaks. Is someone experiencing leaky fuel lines due to ethanol? I haven't seen the mentioned report and debate but actually just wondering if it's a practical or theoretical problem?

Oh it is real. Hit very bad here 12 years ago, at that time I was small engine mechanic. Some of the rubber formulations became flexible as silly putty and would come off in strings. It was due to what they put in the gas and also a worldwide shortage of certain compounds needed to make good rubber.

My brothers 86 toyota pickup still has the OE rubber fuel lines, still good shape. Quality varies greatly. There is no way to know for sure other than try it, but as a general rule if the hose is not marked, or has no part number, I assume it is cheap stuff. Cheap stuff is also usually identifiable because it is cheap, but not all expensive stuff is good either. Aeroquip does not seem to live past five years.
Gates used to make garden hoses, these lasted 40 years in the high altitude sun, and also are chemical resistant??? quality varies, sometimes even garden hose??? I trust Gates! Goodyear is ok too. rubber from europe?? naw, hit and miss. but speaking of that my buddie bought new fuel hose for his VW at the local store, and the stuff was weak. But it's gates brand?? So I look up the part number and it is "oil/vapor emissions hose" not recommended for fuel. But they don't know. They also don't know there is hose rated for external resistance to fuel required for in-tank pumps. This has caused many problems :shock: Those autoparts people must get no training!