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Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:41 pm

So about a year ago I started building a rail as my senior project for high school. I rebuilt the 1600 dual port engine, and ended up piecing two engines together. One had good internals, the other had a better block. Long story short, I got it all finished, running, and on the road, but now it's time to build body for it. I'm trying to do my research a little while I'm away at college so that I can make some progress when I go home for Winter Break. I know this is a big task, but I'm use to biting off more than I can chew. Any advice or tips are appreciated.
As of right now, my plans are to build a fiber glass body, including a hood, roof, side panels, and some work to protect the engine/ rear end. I'd like to make mold for the body and then separate the fiberglass from the mold after. I was thinking some sort of foam, but I read that the heat from the resin can warp certain foams when setting. Anybody have any experience with a good mold making material? I also need to find a good cloth to use. I'm planning on buying a large roll, 100-125 yards, but I'm curious as to what type of fiberglass to order and what weight to get. If someone has a place they like to order material from, let me know, I'm in the ballpark to buy shortly. Thanks in advance! Any advice is appreciated.
P.S. This rail is street legal in NYS. Frame is was built by a guy who makes the roll cages for a speedway, and modified to fit me (tall guy) by a licensed welder.

Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:03 pm

LP fueled? Pretty cool.

I would consider modifying a frame buggy panels for the job rather than trying to build a fiberglass car.

Consider a three piece body http://acmecarco.com/index.php/berrien-buggy/sand-rails/options-and-accessories

Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:22 pm

CcJ23 wrote: P.S. This rail is street legal in NYS. Frame is was built by a guy who makes the roll cages for a speedway, and modified to fit me (tall guy) by a licensed welder.
It's too bad it was done that way, as it looks like the licensed welder has modified a lot of the strength (and street safety) out of the original builder's design. :(

For the body, what are your ultimate plans? Is it just for looks? Do you want it to be sealed enough to keep rainwater out? Do you need it to keep mud and ground muck from coming up? Will you put an interior in place once it has a body?

Also important: Is that second LP tank going to stay where it is at? If so, for safety, you're going to have to make a pretty wild body shape to keep that tank OUTSIDE the passenger compartment.

If you want to make a mold, you would probably do it in the opposite order from your plan- make a body FIRST (with whatever supports and temporary underneath structure is required), THEN make a mold from that, and finally make a body from the mold to use as the actual body. A good set of references for the initial shaping are the R. Q. Riley guides, they've been around for decades:
http://www.rqriley.com/frp-foam.htm

Also, since you have a very geometric shape, you might consider doing a flat-panel build as your first pass. Fiberglass sheeting is easy to find, just cut it to the shapes of your cage, attach, and fiberglass the joints together.

Good luck and post your progress! :wink:

Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:00 pm

heywebonya wrote: LP fueled? Pretty cool.

I would consider modifying a frame buggy panels for the job rather than trying to build a fiberglass car.

Consider a three piece body http://acmecarco.com/index.php/berrien-buggy/sand-rails/options-and-accessories

I think it would be more work to redo an existing body, because mine is oddly shaped and larger than most rails. I was hoping to uncover the techniques they use to make their bodies though.

Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:20 pm

WD-40 wrote: CcJ23 wrote: P.S. This rail is street legal in NYS. Frame is was built by a guy who makes the roll cages for a speedway, and modified to fit me (tall guy) by a licensed welder.
It's too bad it was done that way, as it looks like the licensed welder has modified a lot of the strength (and street safety) out of the original builder's design. :(

For the body, what are your ultimate plans? Is it just for looks? Do you want it to be sealed enough to keep rainwater out? Do you need it to keep mud and ground muck from coming up? Will you put an interior in place once it has a body?

Also important: Is that second LP tank going to stay where it is at? If so, for safety, you're going to have to make a pretty wild body shape to keep that tank OUTSIDE the passenger compartment.

If you want to make a mold, you would probably do it in the opposite order from your plan- make a body FIRST (with whatever supports and temporary underneath structure is required), THEN make a mold from that, and finally make a body from the mold to use as the actual body. A good set of references for the initial shaping are the R. Q. Riley guides, they've been around for decades:
http://www.rqriley.com/frp-foam.htm

Also, since you have a very geometric shape, you might consider doing a flat-panel build as your first pass. Fiberglass sheeting is easy to find, just cut it to the shapes of your cage, attach, and fiberglass the joints together.

Good luck and post your progress! :wink:

I believe the frame is stronger now than it was originally in all honesty. I should have stated that the guy that did the mods also makes roll cages, so he knows a few things. The car was originally a four seater, but being 6'5", I wasn't comfortable with my head sticking through the roof and not being able to look through the windshield. I had him raise the roof and move the center brace back 6 inches. The windshield frame was also raised up. The side crossbar was changed to protect from side hits, if I were to ever get in an accident.

My plans for the body are to make it semi water proof. I want to protect the front end and create a hood. Obviously that will keep me and the battery etc. dry. The roof is important too, but I may make that removable. I'd like to seal this up the best that I can to protects me from the rain I guess. I want to install a sound system at some point, so I want to protect that. As for the tank placement, I usually only have one tank in at a time when I'm cruising around town, but it's nice to have both for longer trips. They're both well mounted so I'm not concerned about them falling out. I plan to build a case to inclose the inner one that is where the back seat would've been. That way it looks better and separates it from me. I want to build some sort of firewall as well, at least as a sound barrier.

My plan was to lay the foam into the body and sculpt it to the rails, and then remove the foam and lay the fiberglass down. I heard that if I cover the foam with the right releasing agent or aluminum foil that I could pull the body off easy. Is this not the right way to approach this? Is it better to build the body from foam, and then make an external mold and cover that? What is the best foam and mold making material? Thanks again.

Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:22 pm

The concern about the internal tank and subsequent statement of having it external to where the occupants are is the potential for it to begin leaking. LP is heavier than air so it would potentially fill the compartment with explosive gas.

There is a post somewhere on this same forum about the SIMEK a I recall. There are some good photos of the process for making the body/molds etc.

One thing to consider is that you are planning on making molds for a one off car. That can get expensive.

Sun Nov 16, 2014 2:41 pm

I would consider looking into an aluminum body..... Search out a local dirt track racer and find where he gets his body panels made. Your frame looks similar to (but longer than) a dirt modified.

Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:17 am

How about something like the Boonie. Did Popular Mechanics way back have a similar build article. Even 1'4" plywood cover with fiberglass cloth and resin.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1681368

Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:13 am

Another model to look at would be the STRIPPER...removable fiberglass body with a rail type frame

Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:41 am

http://www.rqriley.com/frp-foam.htm

bnc

Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:03 pm

The difference between what I need as apposed to tradition FRP Foam methods is that I do not need to add structural strength to this car, which is the purpose of FRP. I'd like to build a free standing, fiberglass body that is removable, similar to that of Warrior rails. I need it to protect me from the elements, but I still want to have the feel of a rail, if that makes sense. If I can remove the foam from the fiberglass then I will save myself a lot of weight for an already underpowered car.

My original idea was to build the shape in place out of polystyrene foam, pull that out and then substitute rails with pvc pipe. Then lay some foil or tape down, spray it with a releasing agent, and lay a few layers of cloth down. Does this sound reasonable to anyone?

Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:24 pm

After some further consultation, I emailed some professionals who build bodies and one of them suggested wrapping the frame with pallet wrapping and laying the fiberglass across that. That seems like the most logical thing to do for the roof. I will probably add some detail to it but thats a great initial start.

I think what I'm going to use material wise is lay my first layer down as 1 oz cloth, then some middle structural layers (probably 3) as 3 oz mat, and finally top it with another 1 oz layer. Then I'll top it with another layer of epoxy, so that I can sand it and work with it in the end. Im still leaning towards polystyrene for the front end, since it will be hard to wrap.

Does anybody have a reputable seller that they've used before? I'm looking to get a bunch of stuff. Also, should I get a special epoxy? Anything fancy?

Thanks again.

Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:54 pm

You are going to have a very hard time directly laying saturated glass cloth on vertical surfaces without solid support underneath them. The cloth will simply slide off like a wet towel. Also, 1 oz cloth, sometimes called "wedding veil" looks like just that. It is extremely light and will not have any rigidity at all. I suggest that you buy a small quantity of cloth and resin and experiment with how to build body panels with it. I simply can not see how you would get an acceptable result by attmepting to laminate a panel on nothing more than heavy saran wrap between your frame tubes. The other thing you will find is that epoxy will be prohibitively expensive compared to polyester resin. Although it has great strength and bonding properties, it cures much slower, is more difficult to sand, and must be measured very accurately to cure correctly. I agree with others who have suggested buying flat fiberglass panels or lightweight boatbuilding plywood (like Okoume) and connecting them into body shell parts. It will be less expensive, less messy and a lot more rigid.

Here is a supplier I have used for glass, resin and tools, mostly for surfboard building, but I've used the same materials to repair my buggy body. http://fiberglasssupply.com/ A good resource for information on using fibeglass cloth and resins is http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/1000005 This is a surfboard building forum, but the materials and techniques are the same and there is a lot of expertise on the topic.

Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:24 am

lay your large flat panels up on someething like masonite or formica then shape/ mold the rest to fit the body.

I've repaired a couple old boat hulls laying up a large patch panel on an old section of kitchen counter, cutting to fit, then fairing it in. Did the same for the sides of a buggy we stretched years ago.

You can also do something similar to what the car audio guys do by stretching acrylic material and glassing it since you aren't concerned with strength.

Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:23 am

I can tell you that large lay-ups on anything other than perfectly horizontal surfaces are going to be 100 times harder than you can imagine. Even on horizontal surfaces its going to be tough.

Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:44 pm

I'd go metal, maybe clone the Empi sportster look? Is there some kind of vehicle look you are going for? Aluminum will probably be your lowest weight solution. Any idea what it weighs already?

Just curious what the wheelbase of that thing is. It looks huge. You may have set a record already for the longest wheelbase AC VW powered vehicle.

Dave

Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:44 am

I'm not sure of the wheelbase, I know it is long, but if I remember correctly, it weighs somewhere in the range of 1500-1700 lbs

Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:41 am

HeidelbergJohn4.0 wrote:
You can also do something similar to what the car audio guys do by stretching acrylic material and glassing it since you aren't concerned with strength. I like this idea. :wink: I think the audio guys use fleece material and soak it with resin. You can buy the fleece cheap at Wally World. I've been meaning to try making some parts this way myself. 8)

Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:50 am

some use fleece, others use something more like spandex or panty hose.

Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:47 pm

I just measured and from center of hub to center of hub, the wheelbase is about 122"