TheSamba.com :: View topic - 1978 Westy - Kads to FI again

Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:43 am

Hi Folks,

We have a 78 westfalia, originally from california. It runs great with Kadrons but I am partial to stock vehicles and past late bays I have owned always ran really with with stock FI installed. So we'd like to go back to FI. The bus is in Canada and we dont' need any of the CA specific emissions as there is no checks for vehicles of this age here.

I've worked out a deal to trade the Kadrons for most of the parts of a stock FI system from a running bus. We'll be swapping things out in a couple days and I was wondering if the FI experts here review the list he provided me of parts and provide any insight as to anything that may be missing or should be checked closely to determine it's suitability. Also wondering if there is anything 78-specific.

I know I'll need new injector seals (maybe injectors?) and various odds and ends like fuel hose etc. but is there any significant parts missing below? I am a little nervous taking my mint running Kadrons off and starting from scratch so trying to limit future issues with the new/used system.

Here is the list and description:

You probably wont get an EGR system to work and everyone that I have seen has blocked them off. The valve at the intake plenum is NLA and no one repairs them and due to the heat and carbon build up it is impossible to find one that works. The passageway inside the plenum is usually blocked also. You'll need new intake to plenum boots, new fuel line, new injector seals, new decel valve hose and basically all the hoses and a tempII sensor which I would replace and intake gaskets. I can bring the best stuff and some spares for you to check. I have:

ECU
Double relay
fuel pump and pressure reg
Breather assembly
S-boot and hose connectors
AFM
AAV
TTS
Wiring harness
Decel valve
Resistor pack
Plenum and throttle body
Intake runners
FI fuel lines

Thoughts?

Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:48 am

He's basically right about the EGR system. There are actually many of those parts available new, but not the PCV breather or EGR. EGR filters and gaskets are available new. Manual and Automatic transmissions had a different ECU, but I think all that did was change the idle speed.

Fuel injector seals will need renewing, and are available cheap through your FLAPS. I sent my injectors off to Witchhunter and was impressed with the work they did. You might take the opportunity now to use modeler's paint to re-color the wiring harness connectors now. They are actually color coded...Bentley (I think) lists what the colors are. Also, those individual connectors (not the 7-pin) are also available from FLAPS. There is also a thread called 'rebuilding your wiring harness' or some such thing.

I think the system was basically the same from 1975-1978. California models had an O2 sensor and different ECU in 1979. I've seen many model numbers for the air flow meter, so be careful with that in its application.

Catalytic converter is also available new, if you choose to do that. Here are a few pictures from my 1977 California model:

Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:31 am

Wasted,
Those are great reference pics. First time I've seen those.

Buseric,
I just finished this job where I removed a Weber Progressive from a 1976 bus and reinstalled the original FI system. The bus runs much better now and is legal here in California.

For you, since you don't need to worry about anything legal or smog wise, your job will be much simpler. I assume you'll be leaving the exhaust system you have untouched. That will save a lot of trouble. Your list looks pretty complete but one small item you'll want to buy new is a temp sensor 2. The decel hose is available in the samba classifieds: Cheap but used http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=851567

New: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1220031

Best to go through all the components individually and bench check them. You can find out how here by searching. Send the injectors out for rebuild and new flow check. About $100 but well worth it. Basically, you want to know that all your parts are working BEFORE you install them. It will save a lot of headaches later. Be sure to take a look at the underside of your fuel tank. Make sure that the return port has only been capped off so that it's easily changed back.

You have a huge advantage knowing that this system was running well when recently removed. Good luck.

Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:50 am

aeromech wrote: Best to go through all the components individually and bench check them. You can find out how here by searching.

Also, the Bentley has a very nice section on this, your basic individual component checks are explained there.

aeromech wrote: Basically, you want to know that all your parts are working BEFORE you install them. It will save a lot of headaches later.

This is huge. Really. Please take the time to do that. If nothing else, it will help you learn what each component does.

Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:07 pm

Thanks for the reference pics, those are awesome. The bentley is pretty good and I have been working on a friends FI bus recently so its bringing back some memories. I've been driving splits for the last decade or more so bay details are a little foggy.

I've seen Colin's diagrams and those will be helpful as well in the reassembly/testing.

aeromech thanks for the tips and reference photos. The seller had a few systems and has offered to let me swap out components if somethings turns out bad. Works out great for both of us as he was looking for good kads for a dual carb bus and I an FI system and he is local.

If I recall from going through the bentley that I will need to basically install the system to test the components and circuits, correct?

My current exhaust is simply 78 heater boxes going in to a eliminator style muffler, no crossover pipe, cat etc....

older engine compartment photo (minus a balance tube and some relocation of fuel hoses, tidying up etc now complete):

Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:52 pm

what is the correct distributor part # I should be looking for?

Thu Jan 01, 2015 2:58 pm

Correct info on distributor: http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm#B7679

Bus & Pickup Late 1976-1978 All States, 1979 Federal * 2000

Note: This Distributor also fits Type 4 (412) 1974
Distributor: VW 021-905-205P, Bosch 0231 168 005 > 022-905-205S, 0231 170 093
Note: 0231 170 093 dist primarily used on California Late 1976-1978 and all Federal 1979 Models
Can Use:
Points: 01 011
Condensor: 02 074
Rotor: 04 033
Note: 0231 168 005 dist originally equipped with Speed Limiting Rotor 04 016 (5400rpm)
Dust Cover: 039-905-241, Bosch 1230 500 139 > 1230 500 147
Cap: 03 010
Distributor Cap Clip: 034-905-265, Bosch 1231 251 033
Parts Kit (Shims, Washers & Hardware): 059-998-211, Bosch 1237 010 007
Coil: 00 012
Vacuum Can: 07 060
Ignition Wires: 09 171
Spark Plug: W8CC
Timing Set At:: 7.5deg BTDC @ 850-950 rpm (Man Trans), 900-1000 rpm (Auto Trans) w/strobe, vacuum hose connected
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 8.5-11deg Adv @ 7.9 In. Hg; Centrifugal: 8-13deg @ 1600 rpm, 20.5-24.5 @ 3400 rpm

If I recall from going through the bentley that I will need to basically install the system to test the components and circuits, correct?

Actually no. Take each item individually on the bench and use your ohmmeter to check them out per the manual. You want to know that each component is good PRIOR to installation. You can use this: https://manuals.type4.org/ljet/

Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:39 pm

aeromech wrote: Correct info on distributor: http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm#B7679

Bus & Pickup Late 1976-1978 All States, 1979 Federal * 2000

Note: This Distributor also fits Type 4 (412) 1974
Distributor: VW 021-905-205P, Bosch 0231 168 005 > 022-905-205S, 0231 170 093
Note: 0231 170 093 dist primarily used on California Late 1976-1978 and all Federal 1979 Models
Can Use:
Points: 01 011
Condensor: 02 074
Rotor: 04 033
Note: 0231 168 005 dist originally equipped with Speed Limiting Rotor 04 016 (5400rpm)
Dust Cover: 039-905-241, Bosch 1230 500 139 > 1230 500 147
Cap: 03 010
Distributor Cap Clip: 034-905-265, Bosch 1231 251 033
Parts Kit (Shims, Washers & Hardware): 059-998-211, Bosch 1237 010 007
Coil: 00 012
Vacuum Can: 07 060
Ignition Wires: 09 171
Spark Plug: W8CC
Timing Set At:: 7.5deg BTDC @ 850-950 rpm (Man Trans), 900-1000 rpm (Auto Trans) w/strobe, vacuum hose connected
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 8.5-11deg Adv @ 7.9 In. Hg; Centrifugal: 8-13deg @ 1600 rpm, 20.5-24.5 @ 3400 rpm

If I recall from going through the bentley that I will need to basically install the system to test the components and circuits, correct?

Actually no. Take each item individually on the bench and use your ohmmeter to check them out per the manual. You want to know that each component is good PRIOR to installation. You can use this: https://manuals.type4.org/ljet/

Thank you, very helpful info.

Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:45 pm

2 cents worth. If the EGR was available new I would say use it as it lowers head temps a little by injecting inert gasses that displace some air and fuel at cruise but not at wide open throttle. However they are not available new and any leakage can cause mixture issues therefore if it is not a requirement of smog I would leave it off. An extractor exhaust will be fine, just be sure you take the time to set the mixture on the FI because it will change when the exhaust if opened up. The 1972 - 74 style heater boxes probably cool the heads a little better than 1975-78 boxes. VW went back to them in 1979, and added thicker flanges to conduct more heat away from the heads.

Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:53 am

buseric's seller wrote: ...........I can bring the best stuff and some spares for you to check. ..........
I'd be a little concerned that some items may not be compatible with others, is everything he has from a 77-78 system?, or is there some 75-76 mixed in?, many parts are similar and look the same outwardly but don't play with each other when it's time to install them.

Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:22 am

busdaddy wrote: buseric's seller wrote: ...........I can bring the best stuff and some spares for you to check. ..........
I'd be a little concerned that some items may not be compatible with others, is everything he has from a 77-78 system?, or is there some 75-76 mixed in?, many parts are similar and look the same outwardly but don't play with each other when it's time to install them.

He has 76, 78 and 79 systems. Not sure on the prod. date of the 76 system so have asked him to focus on the 78 stuff, hopefully that system is from a runner. He is on here I believe and may see this thread.

Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:23 am

Been here:

http://www.ratwell.com/technical/FISwap.html

http://www.type2.com/library/fuel/fuelibo.htm