TheSamba.com :: View topic - Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle

Sun Jan 11, 2015 3:36 pm

To all,

Regarding the Audi turbo transmission, the benefit of increased planetary gears and increased number of clutches is enjoyed. Wondering why? See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicyclic_gearing

For the lazy, I provide some excerpts:

Planetary gear trains provide high power density in comparison to standard parallel axis gear trains. They provide a reduction volume, multiple kinematic combinations, purely torsional reactions, and coaxial shafting. Disadvantages include high bearing loads, constant lubrication requirements, inaccessibility, and design complexity.

The efficiency loss in a planetary gear train is 3% per stage. This type of efficiency ensures that a high proportion of the energy being input is transmitted through the gearbox, rather than being wasted on mechanical losses inside the gearbox.

The load in a planetary gear train is shared among multiple planets, therefore torque capability is greatly increased. The more planets in the system, the greater load ability and the higher the torque density.

The planetary gear train also provides stability due to an even distribution of mass and increased rotational stiffness. Torque applied radially onto the gears of a planetary gear train is transferred radially by the gear, without lateral pressure on the gear teeth.

I hope this helps.

kourt

Sun Jan 11, 2015 3:49 pm

Point of Reference

This is the cost breakdown from GTA for a rebuilt auto trans:

Rebuilt Auto Trans $1595.00
Turbo Upgrade 800.00 (optional)
Core Deposit 750.00
FAS cooler kit 299.95 (optional)
Shipping (B to B) 335.38 (price varies)
--------------------------------------

Grand Total $3780.33 (Less the core deposit if your's is acceptable)

This is what's included in the "Turbo" option for the additional $800:

4 gear planetary; larger direct reverse drum; extra clutch in forward clutch, RV stall converter, bronze bushings.

Sun Jan 11, 2015 3:55 pm

Another reference: the famous Campground Tranny Rebuild thread:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=253381&highlight=campground+transmission

This is a must read for anyone considering the Audi turbo upgrade.

And... the "won't shift from 1st" thread, which contains some very useful diagnostic information from AtlasShrugged:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612835&highlight=atlas+shrugged

kourt

Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:19 pm

Hey Kourt-
I have an auto- have only ever had automatic vanagons and love them! My first was an 84 Vanagon GL back in 1996, had it rebuilt for @$1600 back then and it ran beautifully. I now have a 1990 Carat and last year bought an Audi Turbo trans to do the swap over, just haven't gotten around to it yet! I'm looking forward to the thread, as I too plan to add the Peloquin LSD, the "freeway flyer" R&P, and the FAS cooler..... then there's the big plans for the 1.8t conversion (one day). Thanks for posting this- gotcha bookmarked now!
-Bob

Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:23 pm

ThankYouJerry wrote: Point of Reference

This is the cost breakdown from GTA for a rebuilt auto trans:

Rebuilt Auto Trans $1595.00
Turbo Upgrade 800.00 (optional)
Core Deposit 750.00
FAS cooler kit 299.95 (optional)
Shipping (B to B) 335.38 (price varies)
--------------------------------------

Grand Total $3780.33 (Less the core deposit if your's is acceptable)

This is what's included in the "Turbo" option for the additional $800:

4 gear planetary; larger direct reverse drum; extra clutch in forward clutch, RV stall converter, bronze bushings.

If you throw in the taller r&p there's another $1500. GTA didn't have any in stock when I checked last, and they won't warranty it if not purchased from them.

Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:00 pm

oldskewlsk8ter wrote: ThankYouJerry wrote: Point of Reference

This is the cost breakdown from GTA for a rebuilt auto trans:

Rebuilt Auto Trans $1595.00
Turbo Upgrade 800.00 (optional)
Core Deposit 750.00
FAS cooler kit 299.95 (optional)
Shipping (B to B) 335.38 (price varies)
--------------------------------------

Grand Total $3780.33 (Less the core deposit if your's is acceptable)

This is what's included in the "Turbo" option for the additional $800:

4 gear planetary; larger direct reverse drum; extra clutch in forward clutch, RV stall converter, bronze bushings.

If you throw in the taller r&p there's another $1500. GTA didn't have any in stock when I checked last, and they won't warranty it if not purchased from them.

Actually, they won't warranty any part of the rebuilt trans if mated to a non-stock engine. Most people who upgrade from a stock R&P are doing so because they don't have a stock engine. This is a copy/paste from an email I received from them last year:

"The 2 year unlimited mile warranty is from time of install, within reason. We ask for the warranty paper work to be returned within 30 days of invoice or it is null and void. However if you are running a non stock engine there is no warranty. We do cover our workmanship for 2 years.

The turbo does not come with an additional warranty.

I hope this answers all of your questions.

Thank you,

Kateka"

Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:14 pm

ThankYouJerry wrote:

"The 2 year unlimited mile warranty is from time of install, within reason. We ask for the warranty paper work to be returned within 30 days of invoice or it is null and void. However if you are running a non stock engine there is no warranty. We do cover our workmanship for 2 years.

The turbo does not come with an additional warranty.

I hope this answers all of your questions.

Thank you,

Kateka"

Well, thanks for that info...they never mentioned anything like that even after me telling them I'm running an EJ25. Hmmm, decisions decisions.

Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:15 pm

IdahoDoug wrote: Subscribed.

Ditto!

My van had it's auto trans rebuilt shortly before I bought it, but this is still very relevant to my future interests. :D

kourt wrote: Have you ever wondered what ATF and coolant intermixing looks like? ... For reference, here are some shots of intermixed ATF and coolant.

:o :-&

So glad I no longer have to worry about that happening:

Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:59 pm

I would try and find an Audi 200 turbo in a junkyard with the three speed 010..keep in mind the laterAudi turbos had the better internals you want and there is chance if the transmission is not original to the car..it may have been swapped with a rebuilt or used transmission without the good stuff. You don't need or want the Audi transaxle..only the automatic section.

Find your turbo and take your time and build your own automatic. Lots of support and information available..those 010s were on everything VW/Audi.

As far as a heavy duty built Vanagon automatic transaxle..the Vanagon transaxle is very strong as it is. You can do some trick stuff..but it won't matter much really. Fun, yes..needed, no.

I like the beefier automatic. It makes sense on a heavy bus.

My rebuild with the turbo internal, fun.

Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:30 pm

djkeev wrote: Jake de Villiers wrote: djkeev wrote: A Vanagon Weekender is said to weigh 5160 lbs.

Whoever said that is wrong. My Vanagon Weekender weighs ~4000 lbs. Its usually around 4500-4800 lbs all loaded for a weekend at a bluegrass festival - instruments, food & drink...

Hmmmmmm I get my weight ratings from Volkwagen AG West Germany........... You get yours from?

Granted this is Maximum...... But you need to plan for this loaded weight.

Dave

That's the GVW, Dave, not the curb weight! My van's been over the truck scales up and down the coast - the numbers I quoted are an average of ten years worth of weighing, pre- and post-Subaru swap.

The Audi with a curb weight of 3500 lbs, plus 5 200 lb passengers and 200 lbs of luggage is in the same ballpark, eh?

Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:51 pm

oldskewlsk8ter wrote: ThankYouJerry wrote:

"The 2 year unlimited mile warranty is from time of install, within reason. We ask for the warranty paper work to be returned within 30 days of invoice or it is null and void. However if you are running a non stock engine there is no warranty. We do cover our workmanship for 2 years.

The turbo does not come with an additional warranty.

I hope this answers all of your questions.

Thank you,

Kateka"

Well, thanks for that info...they never mentioned anything like that even after me telling them I'm running an EJ25. Hmmm, decisions decisions.

Yes, that was the reply I received after sending this email (never mentioned my 1.8T... in fact, I think I was still thinking Bostig at that time):

Hi Kateka,

Is the 2yr unlimited mile warranty:

1. "From the time it is received?"

or

2. "From the time of installation?"

3. Also, does the "turbo" rebuild have the same 2yr or a better warranty?

GTA has a pretty good reputation. Which other reputable trans shops rebuild autos? Not AA and not Rancho. When I stopped by GW last summer they said they were going to start doing them in house, but that hasn't materialized yet. GTA is still doing GW's for them. I'd be willing to bet GTA has done more autos than any other shop in the US.

FWIW... When Stephan did my 1.8T conversion, he took out the FAS trans cooler GTA installed in favor of the GW cooler... Now he's taking that out and replacing with Salim's (Countryhomes Campers) kit which includes a large external cooler with a Derale fan.

Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:55 pm

I'm also part of this club

About 3 years driving with a fully rebuilt auto tranny with the Audi 5000T internals plus a Peloquin torque biasing differential, a VW Rabbit valve body, stock R&P and governor, FAS cooler, and Powerflex polyurethane transmission mount bushing.

Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:48 am

I will be watching this post as well. My DK is quite tired and the wife has bad knees so an auto with the taller final would be an ideal match for my 1.9 AAZ.

Just for reference, the cooler you have chosen looks small. I built a very similar one to cool the water for my intercooler and it did't lower my intake temps much at all. Besides that, the fan was louder than you might think.

I ended up with a 3.5 x 7 x 27 and no fan. It's mounted basically in the same area as you have chosen and cools my intake temps to 10 degrees above ambient.

I know it's not transmission fluid but they are both removing heat from fluid and for me, the small one was a waste of time and money and adding more noise is counterintuitive - just sayin.

Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:59 am

OK so on to the Valve body as an upgraded part..

anyone have anything specific or hearsay regarding what the differences or improvements of one over the other may be?

madspaniard wrote: I'm also part of this club

About 3 years driving with a fully rebuilt auto tranny with the Audi 5000T internals plus a Peloquin torque biasing differential, a VW Rabbit valve body, stock R&P and governor, FAS cooler, and Powerflex polyurethane transmission mount bushing.

Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:07 am

I am watching this thread very closely as well. Plan on using GTA for a rebuild in the near future. Already have the FAS Cooler. For a contribution here is the factory troubleshooting manual for the 010.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/tchaad/Lost%20Knowledge/010_troubleshooting_guide.pdf

I also came across a suggestion that Redline ATF can be used in the trans and final drive eliminating the threat of cross contamination. I do not know if this fluid can actually be used in the differential, but I would like to know as this could buy me time before a full replacement.
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=51&pcid=9
Quote: Provides a GL-4 level of gear protection. Also used with manual transmissions and transaxles.

Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:18 am

dart330 wrote: I am watching this thread very closely as well. Plan on using GTA for a rebuild in the near future. Already have the FAS Cooler. For a contribution here is the factory troubleshooting manual for the 010.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/tchaad/Lost%20Knowledge/010_troubleshooting_guide.pdf

Excellent!

Color me Old but..........

Due to my distrust of the Virtual World, (Web sites gone...... pdf's gone missing..... Broken links), I printed this out and will include it in my 3 Ring Binder with my other diagnostic books and "How To's" I've printed out.

I call it my "Bentley Companion Book". :lol:

Dave

Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:26 am

kourt wrote: To all,

Regarding the Audi turbo transmission, the benefit of increased planetary gears and increased number of clutches is enjoyed. Wondering why? See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicyclic_gearing

For the lazy, I provide some excerpts:

Planetary gear trains provide high power density in comparison to standard parallel axis gear trains. They provide a reduction volume, multiple kinematic combinations, purely torsional reactions, and coaxial shafting. Disadvantages include high bearing loads, constant lubrication requirements, inaccessibility, and design complexity.

The efficiency loss in a planetary gear train is 3% per stage. This type of efficiency ensures that a high proportion of the energy being input is transmitted through the gearbox, rather than being wasted on mechanical losses inside the gearbox.

The load in a planetary gear train is shared among multiple planets, therefore torque capability is greatly increased. The more planets in the system, the greater load ability and the higher the torque density.

The planetary gear train also provides stability due to an even distribution of mass and increased rotational stiffness. Torque applied radially onto the gears of a planetary gear train is transferred radially by the gear, without lateral pressure on the gear teeth.

I hope this helps.

kourt

Thanks for the information! Yes, it helps answer the "Why" Of the task before you.

Dave

Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:26 am

djkeev wrote: dart330 wrote: I am watching this thread very closely as well. Plan on using GTA for a rebuild in the near future. Already have the FAS Cooler. For a contribution here is the factory troubleshooting manual for the 010.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/tchaad/Lost%20Knowledge/010_troubleshooting_guide.pdf

Excellent!

Color me Old but..........

Due to my distrust of the Virtual World, (Web sites gone...... pdf's gone missing..... Broken links), I printed this out and will include it in my 3 Ring Binder with my other diagnostic books and "How To's" I've printed out.

I call it my "Bentley Companion Book". :lol:

Dave

Exactly! I save them on my phone... They're always with me!

Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:00 am

I've experimented with different valve bodies on the Vanagon 010. A "Rabbit, that being a 90 VW Cabriolet" VB, stock VB and a Porsche 944 VB. I did not modify the governor.

I could not tell a big difference between the different VBs. Yes the shift points were different but not a big deal. The Vanagon VB felt like the best match for the bus, being a heavy vehicle, low revving engine by design and in the quest for best fuel economy.

Right now I have the Vanagon VB on the Vanagon and the Porsche 944 VB on my daughter's 90 VW Cabriolet. That VB felt the best for the 1.8 engine. That automatic has some internals from a Porsche 924. Not the four gear planetaries. The Cabriolet is very light and really doesn't need them. Beefier metal thrust washers rather than plastic, with a riveted second gear band piston (no "C" clip) and a metal accumulator.

Can't swear to it..but the Porsche metal accumulator/spring seemed to make the shifting more firm and precise. The metal accumulators were used in the early 80's. They changed over to a plastic accumulator sometime around 1985.

Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:47 pm

dart330 wrote: I also came across a suggestion that Redline ATF can be used in the trans and final drive eliminating the threat of cross contamination. I do not know if this fluid can actually be used in the differential, but I would like to know as this could buy me time before a full replacement.
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=51&pcid=9
Quote: Provides a GL-4 level of gear protection. Also used with manual transmissions and transaxles.

It looks like this has been asked a few times but nobody has posted an actual response from redline. I guess I will shoot them an email.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=418681
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=355605

I also emailed Jeff Field at http://www.transaxleengineering.com as they have beefed up the 010 for racing purposes in cars with 600HP. This includes Kevlar bands, forged input shafts, upgraded clutches, valve bodies, 4340 alloy 4 planetary carrier, etc. This all sounds like overkill to me but I plan to give him a call and discuss which upgrades would be good for heavy loads and transmission longevity.

Does anyone have a full part list of what is included in the GTA turbo upgrade?