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Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:28 pm

So, last night I drove my bus to Ikea and packed it full with a bunch of furniture and as I should have expected it, the bus decided to no longer start and I had to get towed. Once we arrived back at my place the bus started as nothing ever happened :D

Over the last months, I already had several times where the starter was hung and I just pushed the bus a little forward or back and I was able to hear the starter sound again as I turned the ignition key.

Anyway, last night, when I tried to start the car and turned the key, I couldn't hear the "click-noise" from the starter anymore. Do you guys have any ideas why?

I was looking at this thread but I'm not sure if it is my started or the solenoid which might just be stuck:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=581254

Any recommendations on how to fix it or do I need to buy a new starter?

Btw, AAA plus membership is worth the money :) They saved me last night!

Thanks,

Jan

Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:54 pm

Sorry, I'm going to say it. Install a "hard start" relay and be done with it.
You could spend plenty of time trouble shooting only to have another ignition issue creep up down the road if you want, but why?

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-WR1-Starter-Relay/dp/B001COAX78

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1693212

Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:01 pm

Great idea Bala. Just bought one! Never heard of those.

Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:15 pm

No prob.
Just make sure to put it in a secure nice dry place and do a good job of routing/zip tying/heat shrinking the wires and connections.

I happened to just install one on my bus. I was having the same type issues as you and it instantly fixed it. Here is where I put mine. Just below the relay (out of frame) the main wire harness goes through the firewall and it's pretty dern close to the starter as well.

Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:53 pm

Bala wrote: Sorry, I'm going to say it. Install a "hard start" relay and be done with it.
You could spend plenty of time trouble shooting only to have another ignition issue creep up down the road if you want, but why?

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-WR1-Starter-Relay/dp/B001COAX78

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1693212

If the grease in the starter solenoid has gotten dried out with time, a hot start relay is nothing more than a bandaid. Cleaning and relubing the solenoid is the proper fix with or without adding the starter relay.

Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:15 pm

Wildthings wrote: Bala wrote: Sorry, I'm going to say it. Install a "hard start" relay and be done with it.
You could spend plenty of time trouble shooting only to have another ignition issue creep up down the road if you want, but why?

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-WR1-Starter-Relay/dp/B001COAX78

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1693212

If the grease in the starter solenoid has gotten dried out with time, a hot start relay is nothing more than a bandaid. Cleaning and relubing the solenoid is the proper fix with or without adding the starter relay.

what I am wondering is there anyone who has installed a hot start relay for their hot start relay when that fails because the grease is too hard for the solenoid plunger to move.

Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:19 pm

SGKent wrote:
what I am wondering is there anyone who has installed a hot start relay for their hot start relay when that fails because the grease is too hard for the solenoid plunger to move.

:lol:

I just won a bet rebuilding a friends starter (thanks for the tutorial!) because he wanted to install a relay and I didn't.

Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:49 pm

jsch wrote: So, last night I drove my bus to Ikea and packed it full with a bunch of furniture and as I should have expected it, the bus decided to no longer start and I had to get towed. Once we arrived back at my place the bus started as nothing ever happened :D

Over the last months, I already had several times where the starter was hung and I just pushed the bus a little forward or back and I was able to hear the starter sound again as I turned the ignition key.

Anyway, last night, when I tried to start the car and turned the key, I couldn't hear the "click-noise" from the starter anymore. Do you guys have any ideas why?

I was looking at this thread but I'm not sure if it is my started or the solenoid which might just be stuck:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=581254

Any recommendations on how to fix it or do I need to buy a new starter?

Btw, AAA plus membership is worth the money :) They saved me last night!

Thanks,

Jan

Rebuild or at least go through the solenoid. I'm betting the big contacts are worn. Will be obvious looking at them. I just replaced those in my truck and the kit was $8.00. but it's a toyota.

But first try to wiggle the starter. It should be rock solid, no loose bolts.

After doing the solenoid (if you can't find a contact kit have a local auto electric house just rebuild the starter and they will get it all) put in the relay. It's a nice thing to do for your ignition switch.

BTW, I was just looking at a cheapo FLAPS starter. $38 and I'd pay the $10 core to keep my old bosch and rebuild it at leisure. The cheapo has a lifetime warranty but the FLAPS guy says they will basically just replace it once. I figure 5 years on it would be good.

Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:39 pm

Might want to clean the connections on the starter and battery first?
Good Luck
Tcash

Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:46 pm

Tcash wrote: Might want to clean the connections on the starter and battery first?
Good Luck
Tcash

Nah, if you do the obvious first then you likely won't get to spend the whole weekend working on it. The ol' lady'll rope you into a bunch of honeydews and you'll end up washing the dog or something.

Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:35 am

Quoted from another thread, so I don't have to re-type it all.

Bala wrote: tristessa wrote: SGKent wrote: Ever been behind a truck on a wet slushy road? Yes, more than a few times Do you think that salt and or gravel dust magically stays out of the air intake vents? It doesn't matter where you mount that relay - s happens. Were this the only one I'd say wow. Since it is not I say better install a kill switch in it if you want to be safe. Or better yet don't use one at all.

Now I am biased in this. I drove a 1971 dual port for 400,000 miles in the 70's and 80's. That starter solenoid just gets sticky and it doesn't matter what kind of grease is used. Eventually it sticks and the car won't start. Clean and lube - it is good for another 80,000 miles. That is all there is to it.

I drive behind trucks on wet roads, highways and freeways all the time -- Portland gets plenty of rain every year .. did you miss the memo on that? :lol: My relay isn't any more exposed to salt/moisture/dust than the stock EFI double relay, and is *less* exposed than the ECU. Why would I have any more trouble with that relay than any other electrical component in the engine compartment? And if a starter relay was such a bad idea, why did Volkswagen recommend their installation and use in certain situations .. even before the Bay-Window Bus entered production?

From http://classicvw.org/gallery2/v/partsbook/old-VW-Docs/?g2_page=3

I'm not advocating the use of a hot-start relay as a band-aid instead of fixing the problem -- especially not a crappy Chinese relay dangling by its wiring next to the starter, getting soaked with everything flung off the tire .. and I've seen plenty of that from cheap bastards who won't pony up $25-30 for the Bosch WR1 kit. If the starter needs an overhaul, do it. If the ignition switch is heading south, replace it. Make sure the connections are clean, tight & solid. But a quality relay in a protected location with good wiring and a fuse isn't out of place, IMHO.

Mine's a daily-driver in good running condition .. no trailer queen, but not a beater hoodride POS either. I wouldn't hesitate to jump in and drive from Oregon to Florida .. if I had reason to go to Florida other than to torture Mr. Unpopular. :lol: My hot-start setup was scratch-built because I felt the wire used in the kits wasn't heavy enough, and the length provided was too short to mount teh relay in a sufficiently protected place.

You'll never see me using one of those Ford pieces on any of my VWs -- I've had too much trouble with them on Fords over the years. :twisted:

Spot on, and exactly my thoughts.

I don’t have one currently on my ’76 westy, but if the “no start” issue came up and I could not diagnose/fix it a relay would not be out of the question. I don’t just throw one on every VW I get.

Two real world experiences I have are with beetles, but it’s the same concept. My father bought a ’66 beetle in ’67 and had this issue. That’s a year and a half or so from the factory and this was in Southern California. And more recently on my previous ’63 (6v) I overhauled the starter (took it apart, cleaned, lubed, re-soldered the line from the solenoid etc.), new battery, new grounds, cleaned and/or replaced all terminals, replaced the wire going from the ignition switch to the starter, etc. It worked great…for less than a year. A little fed up I finally built my own relay and never had the issue again.

Early VWs didn’t come with fuel filters (other than in the pump) correct? Now, adding a filter creates two more leak points and is not “factory”, but is that a reason to not use one at all?

I think everyone agrees that the ignition system is a bit of a weak point with AC VWs, so what is wrong with improving it (correctly)?

Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:40 pm

Wildthings wrote: If the grease in the starter solenoid has gotten dried out with time, a hot start relay is nothing more than a bandaid. Cleaning and relubing the solenoid is the proper fix with or without adding the starter relay.

Tough love... but the equine is correct.

Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:36 pm

couple of random thots:

Wandering over to the motorcycle world the BMW bikes all have starter relays. On the R/x series from mid '74 on the relay has only one function: takes the solenoid coil load off the starter switch. There are two interlock switches in the starter circuit but the relay is secondary to them. The starters are Bosch or Valeo units about the same size as the VW starters. The solenoid coils draw plenty and the starter switch is vulnerable to water and dirt. The relays are standard metal cube Bosch units---the ones that get crummy looking on the outside but last and last. They are under the tank and get damp--thus crummy looking on the outside.

The application is a no brainer. You put large loads on nice clean protected relay contacts, not exposed switches with small contacts. VW pulled a no brainier on this one. A lot of their wiring practices are a mess and poorly thought out. I see stuff that must have cost a fortune to build and wonder who was coming up with it? Maybe labor at Hanover was pretty cheap in '73?

We like our buses. For many the word "like" is an understatement. We would like to think VW engineering is the pinnacle-----far from it. They blew it a lot of places. They were innovative (mostly suspension) but they weren't all that great at a lot of ordinary details. And support is miserable. I can go to the dealer and get any part I want for a 1972 BMW 75/5 bike. Factory OEM. Some things are FOB Germany and take 3 weeks but so what? A few things cost an arm, leg and a first born---so don't break them. But you can get them, new in the wrapper. For my '73 bus? It's off to repro land, lotsa junk, Junkyards or make parts myself.

On my bike I use sealed relays. Waterproof. They are exposed and they get wet and dirty. They are Hecho en China, 40 amps and cost $4.00. So far they have been flawless. I am very pleased. China is funny. They have the reputation for junk that Japan used to have. Indeed they make a lot of junk. But there are very good manufacturers too that turn out first class stuff--if somebody wants to pay them for it. Even some small contract places like Emerald Isle. Nice stuff. Most of the electrics/electronics on new cars is coming out of China and it does fine. Harbor Fright and Wally world are funneling the cheap junk into the American mainstream and we think nothing comes out of China but crap. Not true.

http://www.aerostich.com/12v-40a-sealed-relay.html

I recommend putting the relay someplace highly accessible. If you have a starting issue your first move is to jumper your relay. Nice not to have to reach back to the firewall to do it.

Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:05 pm

PITApan wrote: couple of random thots:

Wandering over to the motorcycle world the BMW bikes all have starter relays. On the R/x series from mid '74 on the relay has only one function: takes the solenoid coil load off the starter switch. There are two interlock switches in the starter circuit but the relay is secondary to them. The starters are Bosch or Valeo units about the same size as the VW starters. The solenoid coils draw plenty and the starter switch is vulnerable to water and dirt. The relays are standard metal cube Bosch units---the ones that get crummy looking on the outside but last and last. They are under the tank and get damp--thus crummy looking on the outside.

The application is a no brainer. You put large loads on nice clean protected relay contacts, not exposed switches with small contacts. VW pulled a no brainier on this one. A lot of their wiring practices are a mess and poorly thought out. I see stuff that must have cost a fortune to build and wonder who was coming up with it? Maybe labor at Hanover was pretty cheap in '73?

We like our buses. For many the word "like" is an understatement. We would like to think VW engineering is the pinnacle-----far from it. They blew it a lot of places. They were innovative (mostly suspension) but they weren't all that great at a lot of ordinary details. And support is miserable. I can go to the dealer and get any part I want for a 1972 BMW 75/5 bike. Factory OEM. Some things are FOB Germany and take 3 weeks but so what? A few things cost an arm, leg and a first born---so don't break them. But you can get them, new in the wrapper. For my '73 bus? It's off to repro land, lotsa junk, Junkyards or make parts myself.

On my bike I use sealed relays. Waterproof. They are exposed and they get wet and dirty. They are Hecho en China, 40 amps and cost $4.00. So far they have been flawless. I am very pleased. China is funny. They have the reputation for junk that Japan used to have. Indeed they make a lot of junk. But there are very good manufacturers too that turn out first class stuff--if somebody wants to pay them for it. Even some small contract places like Emerald Isle. Nice stuff. Most of the electrics/electronics on new cars is coming out of China and it does fine. Harbor Fright and Wally world are funneling the cheap junk into the American mainstream and we think nothing comes out of China but crap. Not true.

http://www.aerostich.com/12v-40a-sealed-relay.html

I recommend putting the relay someplace highly accessible. If you have a starting issue your first move is to jumper your relay. Nice not to have to reach back to the firewall to do it.

The question in a bus is a bit more complex. First and utmost - it is not a permanent fix for a sticky bus starter. There is none. The longest lasting fix is to grease or replace the existing solenoid on a schedule or the first time it hangs. The next issue is how hot start relays are built. They are not sealed in a potted can or box. We bay owners suck huge amounts of moisture thru the side vents in heavy rain, and over time it does affect connections and relays. Look at the double relays that fail, the wiring on the lights that corrodes. If you want to put a potted relay in to lighten the load on the ignition switch and use silicone grease on the connections, go for it. Just remember to leave the big stereo and amps out too. And, even if you do it the plastic will crack and the tang wear out so you will still be replacing the switch. I base my knowledge on a 1971 bay that I owned for 400,000 miles. During that time I replaced one lock cylinder and one electrical portion of the switch. I also replaced one turn signal switch that broke internally on the high low beam switch. However, the solenoid probably had to be greased 7 - 8 times; and, replacing it did not greatly lengthen the time between re-greasing. The heat from the engine bakes the grease. Some folks here have had good luck with synthetic greases.

Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:22 pm

Bala wrote: Quoted from another thread, so I don't have to re-type it all.

Bala wrote: tristessa wrote: SGKent wrote: Ever been behind a truck on a wet slushy road? Yes, more than a few times Do you think that salt and or gravel dust magically stays out of the air intake vents? It doesn't matter where you mount that relay - s happens. Were this the only one I'd say wow. Since it is not I say better install a kill switch in it if you want to be safe. Or better yet don't use one at all.

Now I am biased in this. I drove a 1971 dual port for 400,000 miles in the 70's and 80's. That starter solenoid just gets sticky and it doesn't matter what kind of grease is used. Eventually it sticks and the car won't start. Clean and lube - it is good for another 80,000 miles. That is all there is to it.

I drive behind trucks on wet roads, highways and freeways all the time -- Portland gets plenty of rain every year .. did you miss the memo on that? :lol: My relay isn't any more exposed to salt/moisture/dust than the stock EFI double relay, and is *less* exposed than the ECU. Why would I have any more trouble with that relay than any other electrical component in the engine compartment? And if a starter relay was such a bad idea, why did Volkswagen recommend their installation and use in certain situations .. even before the Bay-Window Bus entered production?

From http://classicvw.org/gallery2/v/partsbook/old-VW-Docs/?g2_page=3

I'm not advocating the use of a hot-start relay as a band-aid instead of fixing the problem -- especially not a crappy Chinese relay dangling by its wiring next to the starter, getting soaked with everything flung off the tire .. and I've seen plenty of that from cheap bastards who won't pony up $25-30 for the Bosch WR1 kit. If the starter needs an overhaul, do it. If the ignition switch is heading south, replace it. Make sure the connections are clean, tight & solid. But a quality relay in a protected location with good wiring and a fuse isn't out of place, IMHO.

Mine's a daily-driver in good running condition .. no trailer queen, but not a beater hoodride POS either. I wouldn't hesitate to jump in and drive from Oregon to Florida .. if I had reason to go to Florida other than to torture Mr. Unpopular. :lol: My hot-start setup was scratch-built because I felt the wire used in the kits wasn't heavy enough, and the length provided was too short to mount teh relay in a sufficiently protected place.

You'll never see me using one of those Ford pieces on any of my VWs -- I've had too much trouble with them on Fords over the years. :twisted:

Spot on, and exactly my thoughts.

I don’t have one currently on my ’76 westy, but if the “no start” issue came up and I could not diagnose/fix it a relay would not be out of the question. I don’t just throw one on every VW I get.

Two real world experiences I have are with beetles, but it’s the same concept. My father bought a ’66 beetle in ’67 and had this issue. That’s a year and a half or so from the factory and this was in Southern California. And more recently on my previous ’63 (6v) I overhauled the starter (took it apart, cleaned, lubed, re-soldered the line from the solenoid etc.), new battery, new grounds, cleaned and/or replaced all terminals, replaced the wire going from the ignition switch to the starter, etc. It worked great…for less than a year. A little fed up I finally built my own relay and never had the issue again.

Early VWs didn’t come with fuel filters (other than in the pump) correct? Now, adding a filter creates two more leak points and is not “factory”, but is that a reason to not use one at all?

I think everyone agrees that the ignition system is a bit of a weak point with AC VWs, so what is wrong with improving it (correctly)?

By the looks of this drawing, VW was trying to add power to the coil on crank to improve a poor start rather than a hard starter engagement.

Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:49 pm

SGKent wrote:

The question in a bus is a bit more complex. First and utmost - it is not a permanent fix for a sticky bus starter. There is none. The longest lasting fix is to grease or replace the existing solenoid on a schedule or the first time it hangs. The next issue is how hot start relays are built. They are not sealed in a potted can or box. We bay owners suck huge amounts of moisture thru the side vents in heavy rain, and over time it does affect connections and relays. Look at the double relays that fail, the wiring on the lights that corrodes. If you want to put a potted relay in to lighten the load on the ignition switch and use silicone grease on the connections, go for it. Just remember to leave the big stereo and amps out too. And, even if you do it the plastic will crack and the tang wear out so you will still be replacing the switch. I base my knowledge on a 1971 bay that I owned for 400,000 miles. During that time I replaced one lock cylinder and one electrical portion of the switch. I also replaced one turn signal switch that broke internally on the high low beam switch. However, the solenoid probably had to be greased 7 - 8 times; and, replacing it did not greatly lengthen the time between re-greasing. The heat from the engine bakes the grease. Some folks here have had good luck with synthetic greases.

I agree. While the clean relay contacts will feed bore power to the solenoid coil it's a bandaid on that end. The relay is really about providing more power than the starter switch and long wires to the front will give---and protecting the starter switch. The solenoid needs servicing every so often, clean and grease, check for linkage and bushing for wear and check for contact integrity.

That said, it's possible to have so much voltage drop through the ignition switch and wiring that the solenoid won't operate reliably, especially if marginal. The relay takes that voltage drop out of the equation. if the starter acts up, dig into it.

The solenoid failing to go clunk is a bad linkage or inadequate power to it. The solenoid clunking but the starter not cranking is inadequate cranking power or bad solenoid contacts. So you can do at least some diagnostics by ear.

Slow cranking is another ball of wax and can be a power issue, solenoid contacts, motor brushes, bad bearings, etc.

The Bosch is a long lived but crude and inefficient beast. Spending the big clams for a converted nippondenso will solve starter problems pretty much forever (I got 250,000 out of one then it just wanted some cheap solenoid contacts). More power, less current draw, easy parts availability and so easy to work on. I lust after one for the bike.