TheSamba.com :: View topic

Sun Mar 08, 2015 6:50 pm

Recently, our daughter gave back the 1970 Bus we had given her. Unfortunately, our dachshund had tore out wires and our son-in-law patched things up with different colors of wires. The fuse block had wires just connected helter-skelter. I've straighten all of that out, I now have headlights, turn signals, headlight dimmer is working, horn is working, wipers are working, emergency flasher is working, courtesy lights are working, backup lights are working, and of course it starts and purrs like a kitten. My problem is I have no turn signal indicator lights (unless I touch the connection with my electrical probe or I turn on the emergency flasher) and when I mount the turn signal switch to the steering wheel the horn honks. Is the turn signal canceling plate suppose to be hot? I'm thinking that maybe there is some insulation I need to do to the steering wheel shaft or at least to the turn signal canceling plate but I can't find an exploded view of the steering wheel assembly. HELP PLEASE!

Sun Mar 08, 2015 6:52 pm

Easy peezy wiring diagram

Sun Mar 08, 2015 7:36 pm

Brian wrote: Easy peezy wiring diagram

Thanks, Brian! The colored schematic is a lot better for my old tired eyes.

Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:41 pm

Click on diagram to open.

Wiring Diagrams

I have no turn signal indicator lights (unless I touch the connection with my electrical probe or I turn on the emergency flasher)
If your electrical probe is hooked to ground. You are grounding the circuit. You would need to fix the horn ground circuit.

when I mount the turn signal switch to the steering wheel the horn honks
When you mount the signal switch, it is grounding the brown horn wire somehow.

Is the turn signal canceling plate suppose to be hot?
No, it would be blowing fuses if it was hot. It is grounding the horn somehow.

I'm thinking that maybe there is some insulation
No insulation on turn signal switch or housing.

The steering shaft is insulated from the steering housing. If the make contact with each other the horn will ground and honk.

Horn wiring repair

Thanks to jerseylooker
http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/EarlyBaywindow/9-032.jpg
http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/EarlyBaywindow/4-018.jpg
http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/EarlyBaywindow/EarlyBay-Main.html

Good Luck
Tcash

Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:06 am

Tcash wrote: Click on diagram to open.

Wiring Diagrams

I have no turn signal indicator lights (unless I touch the connection with my electrical probe or I turn on the emergency flasher)
If your electrical probe is hooked to ground. You are grounding the circuit. You would need to fix the horn ground circuit.

when I mount the turn signal switch to the steering wheel the horn honks
When you mount the signal switch, it is grounding the brown horn wire somehow.

Is the turn signal canceling plate suppose to be hot?
No, it would be blowing fuses if it was hot. It is grounding the horn somehow.

I'm thinking that maybe there is some insulation
No insulation on turn signal switch or housing.

The steering shaft is insulated from the steering housing. If the make contact with each other the horn will ground and honk.

Horn wiring repair

Thanks to jerseylooker
http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/EarlyBaywindow/9-032.jpg
http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/EarlyBaywindow/4-018.jpg
http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/EarlyBaywindow/EarlyBay-Main.html

Good Luck
Tcash

Thanks Tcash! That explains all of my problems. Had planned on taking the steering wheel off today to see why the canceling plate was hot. Thanks again!

Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:04 am

Not really on topic at all, but I am going to rewire my entire bus. I plan on using a newer fuse panel, any recommendations?

Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:15 am

m.pendzick wrote: Not really on topic at all, but I am going to rewire my entire bus. I plan on using a newer fuse panel, any recommendations?

Search-Rewire

Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:21 pm

Tcash wrote: Click on diagram to open.

Wiring Diagrams

I have no turn signal indicator lights (unless I touch the connection with my electrical probe or I turn on the emergency flasher)
If your electrical probe is hooked to ground. You are grounding the circuit. You would need to fix the horn ground circuit.

when I mount the turn signal switch to the steering wheel the horn honks
When you mount the signal switch, it is grounding the brown horn wire somehow.

Is the turn signal canceling plate suppose to be hot?
No, it would be blowing fuses if it was hot. It is grounding the horn somehow.

I'm thinking that maybe there is some insulation
No insulation on turn signal switch or housing.

The steering shaft is insulated from the steering housing. If the make contact with each other the horn will ground and honk.

Horn wiring repair

Thanks to jerseylooker
http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/EarlyBaywindow/9-032.jpg
http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/EarlyBaywindow/4-018.jpg
http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/EarlyBaywindow/EarlyBay-Main.html

Good Luck
Tcash

Tcash - your horn wiring repair REALLY helped me. I think I had an Epiphany today. The two brown (ground) wires confused me, but the one connected to the housing was very corroded, the one going up the steering shaft was fine. Then it dawned on me that the two grounds are working like a switch. The horn always has a hot wire to it then when grounded at the horn button the horn goes. On mine I think the horn is bad because there is no resistance from one terminal to the other. The hot wire is good all of the way to the fuse box - so I figured 12volts was going to the horn, through the ground that connects to the housing and that was why I always had 12volts on the shaft, housing, and canceling plate.

Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:58 am

mgerdau wrote: On mine I think the horn is bad because . . .

Actually, what you describe is the way it's supposed to be. Yes, all that stuff is "hot" , except for the ring under the horn button, which is isolated
from the "hot" steering wheel metal, and which is connected to the ground wire running down the steering shaft. When you push the button, that
ring contacts the "hot" steering wheel, completes the circuit, and the horn sounds. The horn is a self-canceling armature, i.e., when current starts
flowing thru the horn coil, it pulls magnetically on a chunk of metal and opens a set of contacts, thus interrupting the current. Then, the spring on the
armature pulls it back in place, closing the contacts, and letting current flow again. This cycle happens many, many times per second.

So, your problem seems to be that something is grounding out the steering column/shaft/wheel when it shouldn't be.

Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:09 am

Well, back to the "drawing board." The new turn signal switch I bought seems to be the problem. I complained about the quality to the seller - anyway. So everything is hot - the steering shaft and the housing, which makes the canceling plate hot too.

Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:00 am

mgerdau wrote: Well, back to the "drawing board." The new turn signal switch I bought seems to be the problem. I complained about the quality to the seller - anyway. So everything is hot - the steering shaft and the housing, which makes the canceling plate hot too.

Not everything is hot.
The housing is normally hot.
The shaft is normally ground.
The horn button is the switch that connects the Housing to the Shaft.
Make sense.

The turn signal switch is neither hot or ground when it is not mounted. When you mount it to the housing it becomes hot.

Sounds like your Turn signal switch was internally grounding. So when you would go to mount it, it would ground the horn.

Tcash

Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:15 am

Ok, that makes sense. Maybe there's another component that's grounding out. But it would have to be something connected to the turn signal switch wiring. :?

So the housing is hot but the shaft is not, Ok so the hot is traveling from the horn through the ground wire that connects to the housing, making the housing hot.

I'll clean contacts and put the steering column back together and keep checking resistance between the housing and the shaft along the way.

Thanks, this is really a puzzle.

Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:13 am

Tcash wrote: The housing is normally hot.

I assume by "housing" you mean the steering column tube? I would suggest everyone uses the names used by VW for the parts on these
cars. If everyone starts making up their own names, there will be endless confusion.

Tcash wrote: The shaft is normally ground.

This is not true. The shaft is electrically connected to the column tube via the shaft bearing. At the bottom end, the shaft is isolated
by the rubber of the coupling disk. The steering wheel gets its "hotness" from the shaft, to which it's firmly attached. If the shaft were
not "hot", the horn push button would never do anything.

@mgerdau: Check out the dimmer switch wires going to the T/S switch. One of them is a ground wire, and it's common for it to become
detached and touch things it should not. Not what you would expect with a brand-new T/S switch, though . . .

Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:04 am

kreemoweet wrote: Tcash wrote: The housing is normally hot.

I assume by "housing" you mean the steering column tube? I would suggest everyone uses the names used by VW for the parts on these
cars. If everyone starts making up their own names, there will be endless confusion.
Agreed. I hope that is what the op is referring to.
Now I'm confused the parts manuals describes the Steering Shaft as being the Steering Column?
Thanks to jerseylooker
http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/LateBaywindow/038-00-4-006.jpg
http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/EarlyBaywindow/4-018.jpg
http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/EarlyBaywindow/4-019.jpg
http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/EarlyBaywindow/4-020.jpg

Tcash wrote: The shaft is normally ground.

This is not true. The shaft is electrically connected to the column tube via the shaft bearing. At the bottom end, the shaft is isolated
by the rubber of the coupling disk. The steering wheel gets its "hotness" from the shaft, to which it's firmly attached. If the shaft were
not "hot", the horn push button would never do anything.
The steering shaft and steering wheel are the ground side of the circuit in this case. The horn ring is the switch. The shaft completes the circuit to ground when the horn button is pressed.

Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:38 am

You're correct, when I refer to housing I do mean the steering column tube.

Well, the t/s switch is an expensive piece of china junk. The part on the t/s switch that houses the dimmer switch (looks like a small house around the contacts) one contact is ground (brown wire) the other is brown and white.

Taking break from cleaning parts and repainting the plate that screws to the floor pan.

Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:54 pm

Ok, this beginning to drive me nuts - and it is a short drive. I have gone over the whole wiring harness, checked the wiring with the wiring schematic in the Bentley Manual (as well as the one's posted on here).

With the key in the on position-horn does not work, worn button when depressed activates the dimmer switch (which personally I find kinda handy), t/s indicators do not work (t/s all work), the brake warning light does not work, and the high beam indicator does not work.

I checked the wire to the horn its hot; that same wire also feeds the brake switch and those are also hot.

I have 5 volts of DC when check between the horn grn (under the horn button) and the t/s (which when I touched my probe would activate the dimmer switch).

With the key in the off position the t/s indicators work great using the emergency flasher switch. I have no resistance between the horn grn and the t/s.

I've followed the thread on horn repair - have no idea why the horn doesn't work, even when I try to circumvent everything.

Does anyone have some encouraging thoughts or suggestions? I'm about ready to buy a new wiring harness, horn, and brake switches.

Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:26 pm

No wire connection to the turn signal switch should have any continuity to the metal turn signal switch frame.

Disconnect all wires going to the turn signal switch. Test all wires for continuity to the switch frame with an ohmmeter. If you find a short, remove the switch and retest. If the short disappears, then there is an issue with how the switch is mounted in the housing, or the housing is mounted to the column. If the short is still there after removal, inspect the wire for shorts or pinching. Insulate, reposition, or de-solder, trim and re-solder as needed.

It seems that aftermarket switches need some physical massaging to get everything mounted up short-free. Bend slightly; add insulation; modify wire positions; etc. Whatever it takes. There's not a lot of clearance there, it seems.

Inspect the metal half-moon bracket carefully to be sure it isn't sunk onto the turn signal housing too much (a common failure point, caused by over-tightening the screws holding the housing sections together on the column.). If sunk too much, it will short to the switch. Its ears should be flush to the edges of the housing. Only viable fix is to replace the housing, if sunk in too far. (Sometimes, a touch of weld on the half-moon bracket, followed by grinding and filing will work for a while.)

Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:34 pm

Hi
Pull the t/s switch off and see if the problem goes away. If it does the t/s switch needs repair.
Good Luck
Tcash