TheSamba.com :: View topic

Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:11 am

My bug wouldnt start this morning. So I as I started troubleshooting the problem I got very confused when looking at my coil. I know that terminal 1 is neg and terminal 15 is pos.

This is whats hooked to terminal 1:

Automatic choke
Carb cutoff solenoid
A heavier gauge black wire going through firewall on passenger side
Terminal 1 has power when key is on

This is what is on Terminal 15:

Green wire from condenser on distributer
Green and white wire going through firewall on driver side

Im confused because it seems like everything is backwards. The bug was running fine up until now. I've only had this car for about a month and I just replaced all the front suspension to cure the shimmies, so I have only had 1 good day to drive it around. Am I just a dum dum or is the coil hooked up correctly and I have a different problem..

Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:16 am

Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:22 am

yes, your coil is hooked up backwards.
wow :lol:

Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:22 am

Thanks Luft Kuhl. That is exactly what I thought. I wonder how my bug was running being hooked up backwards... I'll hook it up properly and see what happens.

Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:24 am

What about the green/white wire that is currently hooked to the pos side? any idea what that goes to? Should I assume its currently on the wrong side of the coil as well and swap it around?

Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:28 am

sirmatador wrote: What about the green/white wire that is currently hooked to the pos side? any idea what that goes to? Should I assume its currently on the wrong side of the coil as well and swap it around?

Yes it's on the wrong side but it only goes to your diagnostic plug (if you actually still have one), it's not hurting anything but might as well swap it around too.

Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:29 am

I'm having about the same issue. I ran it yesterday, was messing with wiring on my headlights last night some. I've not actually checked the coil enforce this but I've never noticed having power to both terminals before? When I turn on the key I have power to both terminals of my coil. Engine turns over but won't fire. It's a new coil. I have electric ignition

Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:54 pm

So i went out and bought a new coil and hooked it up like in the diagram above, but i still have no spark. when the key is in the on position i get power to the coil. Is there anything else I can check or test??

Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:33 pm

First off chances are there is nothing wrong with your old coil, don't just start throwing parts at a problem without working the problem first.
Second, your car would have run just fine having the wires reversed at the coil, only difference is the spark at the plug tip would have jumped "backwards," from the ground or block to the center electrode on the plug, instead of the other way around. Since it's still producing spark the engine will still fire.
So, what makes you think you are not getting spark? When you try to fire up the car does the engine try to crank over? Or do you get absolutely nothing at all? The fact that you are getting 12 volts at the coil says your ignition switch is probably working fine- it's at least passing current through to the coil wire. Try this test: disconnect the coil lead from the center cap on the distributor, hold it close to a ground and have someone crank the engine- you should see a pretty healthy blue spark jump from the lead to ground. If you get that chances are the coil and lead are fine, then you can proceed to check the rotor/ points in the distributor, etc.
If however you are getting absolutely NOTHING when you turn the key, not even the engine cranking over, there are other things we can look at.

Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:36 pm

nastynatesfish wrote: I'm having about the same issue. I ran it yesterday, was messing with wiring on my headlights last night some. I've not actually checked the coil enforce this but I've never noticed having power to both terminals before? When I turn on the key I have power to both terminals of my coil. Engine turns over but won't fire. It's a new coil. I have electric ignition

A voltmeter will show power on both sides of the coil.
If you have electronic ignition however, and you have the wires reversed at the coil, you will fry your ignition module.
Judging from your picture everything appears to be hooked up correctly, on an electronic ignition red wire is + black wire is -, so as long as you have the red wire connected to terminal 15 on your coil, and the black wire connected to terminal 1, you are OK there

Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:01 pm

I'm not getting any spark through my distributor. I pulled a plug and ground it while jumping the starter. I'm assuming it's the ignition module in the distributor? No place has them that's open today. I'll try our vw guy tomorrow.

Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:12 pm

Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:18 pm

Did you check your points?

Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:41 pm

nastynatesfish wrote: I'm not getting any spark through my distributor. I pulled a plug and ground it while jumping the starter. I'm assuming it's the ignition module in the distributor? No place has them that's open today. I'll try our vw guy tomorrow.

What happens if you test for spark through you center HT lead from the coil to the distributor?

Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:42 pm

Mine did the same last week. New electronic ign and all was good. Same scenario.

Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:50 pm

sb001 wrote: Try this test: disconnect the coil lead from the center cap on the distributor, hold it close to a ground and have someone crank the engine- you should see a pretty healthy blue spark jump from the lead to ground. If you get that chances are the coil and lead are fine, then you can proceed to check the rotor/ points in the distributor, etc.
If however you are getting absolutely NOTHING when you turn the key, not even the engine cranking over, there are other things we can look at.

I tested the new coil and the old one with an ohm meter. Both are good. Never hurts to have a spare :wink: But I still didnt have spark. I tested the condenser and found that it is shot. To test it I put the key in the on position and unplugged the condenser from the coil. I jumped the connection from the condenser to the coil with a test light and it lit up. (This is a test I found somewhere online) and those results tell me that the condenser is grounded internally and needs to be replaced. I happen to have another distributor on hand so I swapped it out because the condenser on it is fine. I set the points and set the initial timing to 7.5 with the test light. It has spark now, but it runs for about 5 seconds and dies. Now that I have confirmed spark its either a fuel or timing issue. The timing should be good enough for the engine to run. So im assuming its a fuel problem. I pulled the fuel inlet hose off the pump and gas poured out. So I pulled the line off the pump that feeds the carb and cranked the motor and fuel pumped out. So do you think its the carb needing cleaned or rebuilt? or is it a timing issue?

Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:54 pm

You all need to be able to determine whether you are getting spark or not. The coil negative terminal #1 should only have green wire to distributor on it, and a tachometer wire or a "VW diagnostic" wire, if you have those. So if the ignition switch delivers 12 volt positive to coil positive terminal #15, and the engine spins at the correct speed, then consider the following:

ignition points gap incorrect, like the rubbing block has worn

condenser bad

"electronic ignition" module failure (don't know why many are "afraid" of points)

little wire inside distributor has come loose

distributor has ridden upwards (bad clamp), so not actually turning when the engine spins

bad rotor/bad cap

poor electrical contact at terminals and wire connectors

Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:02 pm

sirmatador wrote:

I tested the new coil and the old one with an ohm meter. Both are good. Never hurts to have a spare :wink: But I still didnt have spark. I tested the condenser and found that it is shot. To test it I put the key in the on position and unplugged the condenser from the coil. I jumped the connection from the condenser to the coil with a test light and it lit up. (This is a test I found somewhere online) and those results tell me that the condenser is grounded internally and needs to be replaced. I happen to have another distributor on hand so I swapped it out because the condenser on it is fine. I set the points and set the initial timing to 7.5 with the test light. It has spark now, but it runs for about 5 seconds and dies. Now that I have confirmed spark its either a fuel or timing issue. The timing should be good enough for the engine to run. So im assuming its a fuel problem. I pulled the fuel inlet hose off the pump and gas poured out. So I pulled the line off the pump that feeds the carb and cranked the motor and fuel pumped out. So do you think its the carb needing cleaned or rebuilt? or is it a timing issue?

When you did that condenser test, did you make sure to rotate the crankshaft pulley to where the points were OPEN?? If they were closed you would get a false reading!

Whenever someone says "my bug was running fine up until ..." you need to retrace exactly what you did from the last moment it was running to this morning when you got nothing.
Perosnally i think you are dealing with separate issues before/after you replaced stuff- for example, your bug may not have started this morning due to the starter being a little "stuck." Then when you changed everything, and the car tried to start but couldn't, you may have changed something good out to something bad--or not seated the new distributor properly, plug wires mixed up, wrong timing--any number of things. This is why I say you can't just start throwing parts at it hoping to get lucky.
Let's take this one step at a time. Are you positive that you seated it properly, when it's correct there is kind of a "thunk" as it sits down into place. Are you sure
you have the plug wires 1-4-3-2 clockwise around the distributor cap?:

We also need to make sure you have timing correct. What is your model distributor #? IS it an SVDA, DVDA, 009? Second as Cusser said make sure you have spark - first check the HT lead off the COIL, pull that lead off the center distributor cap and hold it next to ground, have someone turn the key and see what (if any) spark you get. Should be healthy blue spark. If that looks good then we can focus on the spark coming from the distributor. Since you replaced the distributor, again as Cusser mentioned the points in your replacement distributor may be bad whereas the ones in the first one may have been good.

As Ed Harris said, "Let's WORK the problem people! Let's not make things worse by guessing!"

Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:09 pm

Just a correction. Your engine would NOT have ran with the wires reversed, because the solenoid and the choke on the carburetor would not work due to the incorrect polarity. Also, your condenser probably died due to the polarity being swapped.

Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:16 pm

volkswagen_bug wrote: Just a correction. Your engine would NOT have ran with the wires reversed, because the solenoid and the choke on the carburetor would not work due to the incorrect polarity. Also, your condenser probably died due to the polarity being swapped.

He clearly stated in his first post the bug was "running fine up until now." So unless he swapped those wires early this morning for some reason before his post and didn't tell us...