TheSamba.com :: View topic

Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:02 pm

Our excellent local Air-cooled only shop closed up within the last year or so. they had been around for over 30 years. They closed partly because they were tired of crawling around/under cars. Partly because of the crappy parts supply (eg: bus CV joint boots, who warranties them?) and partly because they developed a new side business 15 years ago that is now much more prolific than the VW repair bizz. When it came time to focus on one over the other, the non-VW bizz was a much better long-term decision.

What this means for us local enthusiasts is that now we have to mail-order parts, and send our stuff out for machine work. I have one of the last engines they machined and balanced before they stopped doing VW work. It is sitting in boxes waiting for me to pick a cam and get all the bearings and such.

I was pretty bummed when they closed, but in discussing the decision with the owner, I can certainly see the logic behind it.

Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:06 pm

skills@eurocarsplus wrote: welp, looks like this reinforces my Subaru swap decision.

I'm heading down that road, too. Not for the extra HP, but for the reliability and parts availability.

Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:18 am

cdennisg wrote: Our excellent local Air-cooled only shop closed up within the last year or so. they had been around for over 30 years. They closed partly because they were tired of crawling around/under cars. Partly because of the crappy parts supply (eg: bus CV joint boots, who warranties them?) and partly because they developed a new side business 15 years ago that is now much more prolific than the VW repair bizz. When it came time to focus on one over the other, the non-VW bizz was a much better long-term decision.

What this means for us local enthusiasts is that now we have to mail-order parts, and send our stuff out for machine work. I have one of the last engines they machined and balanced before they stopped doing VW work. It is sitting in boxes waiting for me to pick a cam and get all the bearings and such.

I was pretty bummed when they closed, but in discussing the decision with the owner, I can certainly see the logic behind it.

Mitch?

Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:43 am

69 Jim wrote: cdennisg wrote: Our excellent local Air-cooled only shop closed up within the last year or so. they had been around for over 30 years. They closed partly because they were tired of crawling around/under cars. Partly because of the crappy parts supply (eg: bus CV joint boots, who warranties them?) and partly because they developed a new side business 15 years ago that is now much more prolific than the VW repair bizz. When it came time to focus on one over the other, the non-VW bizz was a much better long-term decision.

What this means for us local enthusiasts is that now we have to mail-order parts, and send our stuff out for machine work. I have one of the last engines they machined and balanced before they stopped doing VW work. It is sitting in boxes waiting for me to pick a cam and get all the bearings and such.

I was pretty bummed when they closed, but in discussing the decision with the owner, I can certainly see the logic behind it.

Mitch?

Yes. He no longer works on VW engines and machine work, and he no longer accepts new clients for car repair/maintenance. He still works on the vehicles of long time customers, but is encouraging them to look elsewhere for their needs.

Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:05 pm

thefladge wrote: Apparently you are not familiar with the poor quality of EMPI. apparently you are not familiar with the poor quality of bugpack.
their intake boots, for example,--which used to be the best on the market--don't even fit anymore :lol:

we won't even talk about their window rubber :roll:

Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:54 pm

borninabus wrote: thefladge wrote: Apparently you are not familiar with the poor quality of EMPI. apparently you are not familiar with the poor quality of bugpack.
their intake boots, for example,--which used to be the best on the market--don't even fit anymore :lol:

we won't even talk about their window rubber :roll:

It's true that most manufacturers have their ups and downs, but EMPI is far more deserving of the blanket "shit quality" label, IMO. They haven't innovated shit, only copycatted scores of parts developed by others previously with that oft-cited caveat, at "affordable prices" for the cheap bastards that oh-so-desire cheap parts.

Bugpack had a long history of actual parts development and quality customer support... though can think of at least one individual who will surely chime in and poo-poo this last point, rightly or wrongly.

Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:13 pm

Im sure gland somebody copied Dunlap tires :shock: I wonder how all the sparkplug manufactures all invented the same thing the same time.....and who made the first car??? and camshafts???the acve hpo cams were KB mopar lobe masters so.......who innovated what? I too am a copier,my kids are as smart as me :roll: well thats not true there smarter. but they did get hear the same way. Im sure that bugpoop mad something good at one time,but in the past 15 years Ive used a lot and well most were not what they should of been and quite a few were outright junk. I think it's the ego guys that have an issue with empi, since it was closed bought reopened and outsorces parts.so..who dosent out sorce?

Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:34 am

Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:43 am

some people put the cheap stuff on there car to make more profit when they sell it. there's always going to be someone out there buying the cheap chinese stuff and that's probably why there car breaks down all the time. if you put the time and put quality parts on a car even though it cost a little more you will be much better off in the long run with the good stuff.

as in some shops closing down our local guy that worked at the dealership back in the 70's has stopped working on them altogether he's just getting to old and wanted to retire. for awhile he got into building houses he made more money doing that than working on cars.

i know another shop, not local, had to start working on type 4's to expand there clientele.

people forget that over 90% of people in the states don't even know how to drive a stick so i know they're not going to go out and buy a vw anytime soon.

btw there was another regular shop garage working on an aircooled vw not to long ago and this was a $80 per hour garage and they didn't know how to set points so after about the third set of points guess who they called to tell them what to set them at, ME

Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:21 am

^^^ Dude! Love your avatar.
"They Live". Best fight scene, best soundtrack, best one-liner.
"I've come here to chew bubble gum, and kick ass. And I'm all out of bubble gum."

Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:31 am

thanks that's why it's there. lol

Sat May 02, 2015 1:25 am

Im just sitting here totally speechless at some of the replies. Cheap? what the fuck are any of you even talking about? Vws are one of the most expensive engines to build.
You can have any other engine for half the price. People bitching about not making any profit on the parts? wha? then you are getting raped by the manufacturer. because the customers are SURELY being raped.

1k for case
1k for carbs.
1k for a nice exhaust
1k for heads
1k for build labor (low end price)

These engines regularly clear 7 thousand dollars to build one from scratch. I have done 2 this year already that were over 10k dollars.

Even bone stock engines regularly clear 3 grand and often even 4 grand for a bone stock rebuild done properly.

Vw people for the most part are NOT cheap, and they are getting ripped off by the industry.

cheap people are the uneducated ones. They will buy a "turnkey" engine from some hackjob on craigslist for 1200-2500. That has a beat down worn out case cut 60 or even 80, thrashed ass roasted heads with all inserted plugs and welded up cracks, used P&C's with hone and rering etc. These idiots have to buy that same engine every 2 or 3 years because it blows up and they say... thats just what VWs do. So they spend MORE in the long run by being cheap.

So in that reguard, yeah ive seen those cheap ass idiots and i wont even spend 5 mins helping them.

But people who love these cars and know whats going on, spend serious money on the engines and transmissions to have one done properly.

I hope whatever happens going forward, that the parts quality goes UP and the prices become more reasonable. The dollar is the most worthless its ever been, so that partially explains the pricing of everything... but some of this stuff is just crazy priced.

Thats why people are going subaru or even getting out of VWs. They can go to a junk yard and buy a 400 Hp chevy engine for a couple grand. slap it in an old hot rod and have a great time.

I love Vws but this is what i see and have seen for years now.

Sat May 02, 2015 11:49 am

mightymouse wrote: Im just sitting here totally speechless at some of the replies. Cheap? what the fuck are any of you even talking about? Vws are one of the most expensive engines to build.
You can have any other engine for half the price. People bitching about not making any profit on the parts? wha? then you are getting raped by the manufacturer. because the customers are SURELY being raped.

1k for case
1k for carbs.
1k for a nice exhaust
1k for heads
1k for build labor (low end price)

These engines regularly clear 7 thousand dollars to build one from scratch. I have done 2 this year already that were over 10k dollars.

Even bone stock engines regularly clear 3 grand and often even 4 grand for a bone stock rebuild done properly.

Vw people for the most part are NOT cheap, and they are getting ripped off by the industry.......

........But people who love these cars and know whats going on, spend serious money on the engines and transmissions to have one done properly.

I hope whatever happens going forward, that the parts quality goes UP and the prices become more reasonable. The dollar is the most worthless its ever been, so that partially explains the pricing of everything... but some of this stuff is just crazy priced.

Thats why people are going subaru or even getting out of VWs. They can go to a junk yard and buy a 400 Hp chevy engine for a couple grand. slap it in an old hot rod and have a great time.

I love Vws but this is what i see and have seen for years now.

What components are you actually speaking of when you are giving your price estimates, because they seem a little off to me if you're comparing apples to apples?

The $1k for a new case, I get that. As you explained it's the exchange rate having us pay $1,000 for the exact same case, with the exact same cost production, as the case we were paying $250 for in 2005.

Which carbs for $1k are you talking about? IDA's are past the $1k mark, but the higher end Weber set ups are in the $750-$800 range. And I've seen the dual HPMX kits as low as $450. Equal performance level V8 4 barrels are equally priced, and your only getting one carb.

Yes, custom made, or stainless exhausts can range in the $1k range, but a stock heaterbox/muffler set up is less than $500, and a painted header/j-tubes/single quite pack is less than $300. I don't know of too many V8 header to tailpipe systems in the $300-$1k range.

Since Roy has chimed in, a set of stock style Mofoco heads are $460. Yes, a set of Super Pros with all the bells and whistles are going to run you $1k+, but again similar performance V8 heads are more.

And as far as labor for builds, and costs for turnkey engines, there are too many variables. There are individuals that put the love, and attention to detail of building a Pro-Stock engine into a 1600. I guess I could see how some could charge $1k-$2k for assembly labor. Shops that I know of, that have built 1,000's of engines, that know what is necessary, and what may be unnecessary dont charge $1k plus for labor. I'd be curious to know if Roy has ever charged anyone $2k labor for a build.

And yes, a NA engine making 1.4+hp per cube probably is going to run to north of $7k, and a boosted engine making 3+hp per cube $10k, but that is far from being regular. The shop I used to work at has built 100's of turn key stroker engines in the 1.2+hp range in the $4500-$5,000 range. You will have $3,500-$4,000 in a turn key new stocker, but as mentioned before, a lot has to do with the Brazilian Real exchange. Summit has 350 Chevy long blocks rated at 195hp for $1600, but even though they are 10 times more common than an Aircooled VW engine, they aren't 10 times less than a 1600 long block. Your average turn key 1.4+ hp per cube SB V8 is in the $5,500-$7,000 range, and a BB is in the $12k-$15k range.

Cost isn't an issue in just the VW world, it's in everyone's world working on a 35+ year old car. The classic car movement isn't pushing forward at Mach speed like the B Engine Honda craze of the 90's, or the LS, or Diesel crazes of today. Your not going to find a cylinder head company spending $1,000's on designing a SB 350 Chevy head when they sell 50 6.0 LS heads for every 1 average 350 head. Something else to think about is for every Aircooled VW out there needing parts, there are 1,000 Ford/Chevy/Mopar vehicles needing parts. So if a V8 part is even close to the cost of a VW part, the VW people are the ones getting the smoking deal.

And for everyone putting modern engines in older cars, it's a supply, and demand thing, and has little to do with the cost in the VW world. In the late 70's, early 80's there were two Aircooled salvage yards by me that had over 1,500 cars each. You could buy a running engine for $50. It's no different than putting a 4.6 in your 50 Mercury, or a 6.0LS in your 74 Camaro. It's a cost issue for everyone owning a classic car, and is a cheap cop out for someone not wanting to spend the money, or wanting to take the most simple solution.

VW people aren't the only ones trying to get a cheap part for their classic car, everyone that owns a classic car is. If they are complaining about the cost to upkeep a classic VW, then yes, they need to go get a yard V8 to put in their rat rod they built out of their neighbors swingset.

Sat May 02, 2015 4:31 pm

Who says you have to build a big motor every time bone stock motor is way way cheaper than that if you know the right people and I'm not talking about the guys that put these motors together with blue silicone either.

Sat May 02, 2015 7:14 pm

I'm currently at the end of gathering parts for a 1776 bus engine. It is balanced, will have nice heads, dual carbs, full flow oiling, and be a clean smooth runner for under $1500. It just takes time and smart purchases.

Sun May 03, 2015 12:03 pm

mightymouse wrote: Im just sitting here totally speechless at some of the replies. Cheap? what the fuck are any of you even talking about? Vws are one of the most expensive engines to build.
You can have any other engine for half the price. People bitching about not making any profit on the parts? wha? then you are getting raped by the manufacturer. because the customers are SURELY being raped.

1k for case
1k for carbs.
1k for a nice exhaust
1k for heads
1k for build labor (low end price)

These engines regularly clear 7 thousand dollars to build one from scratch. I have done 2 this year already that were over 10k dollars..

exactly why I jumped ship on my deluxe build. you forgot to mention crank, rods, p&c's cam, lifters etc.....

sorry, but I am not going to "pray" my cam and lifters will survive break in...and if they don't and pollute the system with good 'ol china junk it's a lot of money you could have just wiped your ass with.

i'll take shit for my Subaru swap while others are eating valve adjusters, valves and cams. hell, i'll even toot when I drive by

Sun May 03, 2015 9:05 pm

mightymouse wrote: Im just sitting here totally speechless at some of the replies. Cheap? what the fuck are any of you even talking about? Vws are one of the most expensive engines to build.
You can have any other engine for half the price. People bitching about not making any profit on the parts? wha? then you are getting raped by the manufacturer. because the customers are SURELY being raped.

1k for case
1k for carbs.
1k for a nice exhaust
1k for heads
1k for build labor (low end price)

These engines regularly clear 7 thousand dollars to build one from scratch. I have done 2 this year already that were over 10k dollars.

Even bone stock engines regularly clear 3 grand and often even 4 grand for a bone stock rebuild done properly.

Vw people for the most part are NOT cheap, and they are getting ripped off by the industry.

cheap people are the uneducated ones. They will buy a "turnkey" engine from some hackjob on craigslist for 1200-2500. That has a beat down worn out case cut 60 or even 80, thrashed ass roasted heads with all inserted plugs and welded up cracks, used P&C's with hone and rering etc. These idiots have to buy that same engine every 2 or 3 years because it blows up and they say... thats just what VWs do. So they spend MORE in the long run by being cheap.

So in that reguard, yeah ive seen those cheap ass idiots and i wont even spend 5 mins helping them.

But people who love these cars and know whats going on, spend serious money on the engines and transmissions to have one done properly.

I hope whatever happens going forward, that the parts quality goes UP and the prices become more reasonable. The dollar is the most worthless its ever been, so that partially explains the pricing of everything... but some of this stuff is just crazy priced.

Thats why people are going subaru or even getting out of VWs. They can go to a junk yard and buy a 400 Hp chevy engine for a couple grand. slap it in an old hot rod and have a great time.

I love Vws but this is what i see and have seen for years now. I totaly agree.aluminum hasent gone up to cause the cases to go from $440 10 years ago to what it is now.same go's for the heads.
and for the guy that says the car is brokdown with these "cheep parts" hm mine has those cheep parts....over 70,000 miles and going strong.ive rejected more bp crap than any other out there. just looking at the label and telling your self you paid more because it bp so it has to be good,just because you dont know what your looking at or even know how to prep it for usage.

Mon May 04, 2015 7:09 am

Here is the number 1 problem currently affecting the VW aftermarket industry.....OVERBUILDING and OVERTHINKING your engine. With the proliferation of the internet, chatrooms and keyboard mechanics, everyone is all of a sudden an expert. It literally makes me shake with anger when I see people telling others about needing to use $400 sets of lifters in a 1776 or $500 sets of connecting rods in a 1914. You know the last time I had a cam/lifter failure? I think it was 2009, which was at least 2000 engines ago. I don't use any magic lifters or magic oil. I follow a very standard procedure of cleaning and measuring before installation and break them in on the stand the same everytime. Of course your engine build is going to cost north of $6000 when you use gold plated push rod tubes because "they're better" Better than what? I use $2.50 stock push rod tubes on 90% of my builds and never, ever have a problem. There is also some new way of thinking that you can pay a bunch of money for some "magic" parts that will never fail. It's just not true. If the engine isn't designed correctly, something is going to fail. If you look at my website, I have somewhere around 15 basic engine designs to choose from. Each one also has some options. The reason I can do what I do at the price I charge is because I adhere to some very basic principles on my builds. I build stock and high performance street engines. That's it. I build engine combos that have been proven over and over and over again for the last 20+ years. Even these combos are getting harder to build as each and every part now needs some personal attention before installation. Nothing is drop in and go.

And yeah, my labor charge is $750 if someone brings in a complete engine for rebuild. That doesn't include any parts or extra machine work like align boring or drilling and tapping for inserts.

Mon May 04, 2015 10:34 am

^^^
Right on Roy!

WISDOM is being able to cut through the glut of information and mis-information and determine what you actually need on a functional as well as cost-benefit level.

Everyone has to start somewhere, but I see a lot of members here on SAMBA who are (by their questions) struggling to understand and internalize information about components and mechanical systems...and therefore are ill-equipped to make buying decisions. In the old days, they may have read some books on the subjects...today they just jump on the internet and get overloaded.