TheSamba.com :: View topic - Has anyone considered doing a Saab B234 conversion?

Fri May 08, 2015 12:38 am

There is one Vanagon with Sabb B234R in Taiwan. The owner is a boss of repair shop & installed the engine by himself. I'll take some shut next time visit his shop.

Fri May 08, 2015 1:38 am

The SAAB B234 doesn't have the wonky water pump. That was a much older carryover from the triumph sourced engine SAAB used in the early 70's (think TR7). It was phased out completely in the early 80's. The pump was a chore to replace but usually lasted about 100k mi. The engine in question was born around 1990, came with or without turbo and is pretty much awesome all over the place ;) I have heard of a guy in VT running one in a bay window. I'll bet there are some Swedish nerds doing it too. They are amazingly robust engines but I prefer the earlier 2.0 ltr B201/2 block with a B234 2.3 head.

Fri May 08, 2015 4:02 am

If there's anyone on this forum that knows his Saab, that's airsweden... :)

I have seen so many Volvo converted Vanagons but not yet a Saabified version - and I'm born and raised in Sweden. The Volvo engines are really popular for a lot of things in Scandinavia (rally, marine, racing, work horses). They are more or less impossible to kill and if you manage to do that you let it cool down and start over again.

The Saab engines were (are) more expensive and hasn't been used that broadly as the Volvo's, probably because you can get the Volvo parts dirt cheap and squeezing out a few hundred HP's will not ruin your redneck budget. The Saab engines are capable at the same level, weigh less, are more sophisticated and... ...more expensive. They have been VERY popular among rallying and rallycross teams though.

Still to this date Per Eklund and his 850 HP Saab is the record holder of Pikes Peak. And he will be as the road is no longer gravel. :)

It would be fun to see a Saabagon!

Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:47 pm

As I type this post I am actually sitting at Airsweden's kitchen table and we just finished a discussion of powering a vanagon with a Saab engine. As a long time Saab enthusiast I thought I would contribute to this thread:

So basically there have been a range of Saab engines going back to the beginning. The early engines were 2 cylinder 2 strokes which quickly became 3 cylinder 2 strokes. Clearly not a good choice for much of any vehicle...though very compact. The next engine in line was the Ford V4 which evolved in displacement and in stock form was up to 1700cc. It's an industrial engine but Saab made it work in the 96. Its main attribute is its very compact but would not be a good swap choice.

The 99 models brought about a completely new engine starting in 1969 which was a 4 cylinder triumph engine and came in a 1.7 liter and later a 1.85 liter displacement. These engines are really good for anchoring docks to.

Around 1973 Saab developed their own engine from the initial triumph design. This was known as the "B" engine. It was a 2.0 liter displacement and had a timing chain. 8valve solid lifter overhead cam with a lay shaft that drove a water pump and the distributor. The water pumps required a special tool to pull out and were driven off of a bevel gear on the layshaft. There were several different styles of pump and if not properly matched the layshaft could be damaged. This required a new shaft and pump and often engine removal to swap. Nowadays however there are some really good electric water pump setups that allow the stock pump to be removed and a series of plugs allow the electric pump adaption. This engine is tilted over but it sits on top of the transmission which has a separate reservoir for the oil sump. A custom oil pan would have to be fabricated or adapted. Power was around 110hp stock and the engine is reasonably compact. However not an ideal swap unless it was all you had and you needed to escape some distopian 3rd world country.

When the 900 came into existence it got a new engine in 1981. The 79 and maybe 80 years used the earlier B engine iirc. The new H motor was the same layout as the B but it used a belt driven water pump and a camshaft driven distributor. There were 5 variations up to 1994 which included 2.0 8vna and 8v turbo (non Intercooled), 16vna and 16v turbo intercooled. And eventually the 2.0 non tubo became a 2.1 thanks to a slight increase in bore with a different block casting. All these engines are very durable and capable of 300+ hp. The 16vs are also timing chains but were interference engines. The 8vs were not interference. A stock 16v or turbo could easily return 30mpg on the highway. The cylinders are leaned over at a 45? Degree angle....cannot remember...so they are not super tall but seem very wide and the 16v heads are fairly bulky. An additional bonus is its fairly easy to adapt a later Saab T5 efi system to the early 16v engines. And with some mods to the intake and timing cover you can use a very nice flowing T5 cylinder head. All the 16vs are hydraulic lifters so never need a valve adjustment. The 8v heads were shim under bucket.

The 9000 engines are a vertical engine with an oil pan. They came in 2.0 and 2.3 turbo and non. Very stout engines which can be tuned for more power than a vanagon could ever want.

Lots more engines in the newer cars but the engine I like the best is the 2.3 turbo found in the Saab 9-5. With a TD04!turbo from the aero model and a basic tune they will make about 230 hp and run about 29mpg in a 9-5. Great torque. Great power. A non turbo 2.3 Saab engine would be a good fit and might work ok with a VW transmission. The turbos generate a lot of torque and could turn a bus transmission into a pile of pieces in short order.

Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:12 am

I know it’s an older topic but I’m interested too. The B234 is a great engine and Saabs have become so cheap. You get a 2.3, turbo, nice mileage, tuning abilities, and premium fuel is optional. This would be beyond my capabilities but I’m very curious of the results if anyone does this in the future.

Mon Sep 30, 2024 7:33 am

Old Thread...took me a while to get an actual vanagon but there is one sitting in my driveway at the moment with a 1.9 WBX just begging to be replaced. I've taken some quick measurements of various saab parts I have around and I can say an 85 16v head is 21" long and about 5.5" tall not including the valve cover.

A 2.3 from one of the non turbo cars could be a nice install much like a Bostig and Mostly just a matter of an adapter plate and making sure starter location for the engine doesn't interfere with any key item on the transmission.

However Now that i have the van here I have a pretty good feeling that the 2.0 out of a Classic 900 will fit...or be very close. The engine is already angles and oriented in the Saab the same direction as the VW. Have to make sure rotations are compatible.

Mon Sep 30, 2024 7:49 am

Though I doubt it's feasible to retain the SAAB 5 speed transmission with a swap, how cool would it be to still have the Super Easy Clutch removal of the original drivetrain. 8) :)
Cut a structural access panel under the rear seat to act as the space to work on the clutch, and trans shaft removal- Unbolt your clutch parts, install the new ones- put the Trans shaft back in, put the trans cover back on. Bolt the Body cover back on. Clutch Done... :P :P

Tue Oct 01, 2024 10:14 am

jlrftype7 wrote: Though I doubt it's feasible to retain the SAAB 5 speed transmission with a swap, how cool would it be to still have the Super Easy Clutch removal of the original drivetrain. 8) :)
Cut a structural access panel under the rear seat to act as the space to work on the clutch, and trans shaft removal- Unbolt your clutch parts, install the new ones- put the Trans shaft back in, put the trans cover back on. Bolt the Body cover back on. Clutch Done... :P :P

It would be a lot of work to make changing the clutch easier given the clutch might outlast some Vanagon bodies. :)

Tue Oct 01, 2024 7:07 pm

Not exactly my experience with our ‘85 900. Did one clutch job during our ownership of our 8 valve 3 door. Granted, the bigger issue was the release bearing.
With the weight of a Vanagon compared to most SAABs, you don’t think a swap would be lasting less in mileage/life in a Vanagon engine/drivetrain swap?
.

Wed Oct 02, 2024 8:22 pm

I think if you did a full saab engine/transmission conversion it would be the Saab transmission that would be failing before the clutch. A decked out classic 900 weighed about 3000 lbs curb weight. The most basic Vanagon tin top might weigh about the same with practical curb weights and loaded weights more likely in the 3500 to 5000 lb range depending on tin top, camper, synchro etc. The Saab transmissions held up reasonably well to the non turbo engines but didn't like all the torque produced with the turbos.

Clutch wise its just a manner of selecting the correct disc and pressure plate. We commonly ran the later C900 clutch or the 9000 Aero clutch with related pressure plate and could hold 250 to 300 hp without slipping.

Thu Oct 03, 2024 10:51 am

Mongoswede wrote: I think if you did a full saab engine/transmission conversion it would be the Saab transmission that would be failing before the clutch. A decked out classic 900 weighed about 3000 lbs curb weight. The most basic Vanagon tin top might weigh about the same with practical curb weights and loaded weights more likely in the 3500 to 5000 lb range depending on tin top, camper, synchro etc. The Saab transmissions held up reasonably well to the non turbo engines but didn't like all the torque produced with the turbos.

Clutch wise its just a manner of selecting the correct disc and pressure plate. We commonly ran the later C900 clutch or the 9000 Aero clutch with related pressure plate and could hold 250 to 300 hp without slipping. I worked in a shop briefly, that was owned by a Family that had been the SAAB dealer in St Louis MO, and then sold off their Franchise right when the 900 was starting #-o #-o to take off... So, they missed on the stronger sales years of SAAB after hanging on for years with a relatively unknown brand compared to Volvo. They had V-4 engine parts laying around, and stuff from the 2 stroke days. :lol:
Anyway, it was intriguing to watch the Father drag out a SAAB transmission rebuild tool kit that he'd held on to after selling the Dealership.
According him at the time, there was a weak spot with the 5 speeds that the 4 speeds didn't have. I forget what exactly it was, but he'd rebuilt enough transmissions to know about it. :-k :-k

Fri Oct 04, 2024 6:30 am

There is a bit of a mythology that surrounds the Saab 4 speeds. Many Saab owners have a feeling that the 4 speeds were stronger and could withstand more hp than the 5 speeds. The detail that’s often forgotten is that for the mos part the 4 speed transmissions were attached to relatively low torque low hp engines with the exception of the 99 turbo models that came out in 77/78. A 5 speed from say 88 and up is far stronger than a stock 4 speed. There are rally built gear boxes that have custom ring and pinions, limited slip diffs, dog gear sets, strengthened drivers, reinforced covers etc etc and there were some 4 speed cases that are stronger due to the casting method used. But a stock 4 speed will still fail readily when putting too much power through it.

Fri Oct 04, 2024 9:30 am

Mongoswede wrote: There is a bit of a mythology that surrounds the Saab 4 speeds. Many Saab owners have a feeling that the 4 speeds were stronger and could withstand more hp than the 5 speeds. The detail that’s often forgotten is that for the mos part the 4 speed transmissions were attached to relatively low torque low hp engines with the exception of the 99 turbo models that came out in 77/78. A 5 speed from say 88 and up is far stronger than a stock 4 speed. There are rally built gear boxes that have custom ring and pinions, limited slip diffs, dog gear sets, strengthened drivers, reinforced covers etc etc and there were some 4 speed cases that are stronger due to the casting method used. But a stock 4 speed will still fail readily when putting too much power through it. Willy S., the guy who rebuilt the transmissions said, as much as I can remember this from the late 80's, that there was a piece or maybe it was a casting, that would break on the 5 speeds. I'm trying to remember if losing Reverse gear first, was your warning sign of imminent doom to the unit, or if it was something else.
Didn't happen to our '85 900, but it was also a NON- Turbo, so not stressed as you noted.
The only things that were really problematic on the car for us, was the squeaking heater blower on speed 1 due to noisy bearings, and developing a muffler rattle with the internal baffling coming loose. I replaced both parts under the 12 month parts warranty several times, but at least I got good at changing them.... #-o #-o
Had the infamous Girling Front Caliper hang up with the emergency brake applied one time. Learned how to rebuild those calipers and keep the pivot for the arm lubed so it didn't bind up again on us.
Replaced the head gasket for coolant seepage, that was pretty easy actually- and of course the 'On The Ground' clutch replacement..... 8) 8)
'No Lift Needed'.... :lol: :lol:
Great heating and cooling, easy to drive, decent mileage, and went through snow up to its front bumper with ease, with no snow tires even mounted. Which for St Louis, was a one time event the whole time we lived there... :P :P

Sun Oct 13, 2024 11:01 am

Found a bell housing to work with and have the B202 end plate to start working on an adapter.

Mon Oct 14, 2024 1:09 pm

Mongoswede wrote: Found a bell housing to work with and have the B202 end plate to start working on an adapter. And you're off and running... =D> =D>

Tue Oct 15, 2024 8:02 am

Just throwing the pieces on top of each other to see what things look like.

This is the end cover from a Saab 9000 which is a transverse engine with a more traditional modern transmission setup. The end cover should however bolt right onto the 900 if it makes more sense to do so.

Tue Oct 15, 2024 9:24 am

If the 900 engine were positioned how it sits in the Saab 900 with the cylinders leaned at the angle 3 of 4 Vanagon transaxle mounts would align clearly and the top two as well I believe. One will be along the cylinder bank but I think a thicker adapter plate could be used to accommodate that. Pretty sure a Saab 9000 oil pan will bolt up without issue making for a low cost oil pan solution. Probably going to need a custom flywheel that matches the Saab crankshaft bolt pattern but smaller diameter to work within the VW bell housing. The saab starter mounts to the engine vs the transmission...have to do some drawings and start to get a feel for the shape of things. Its looking doable...assuming the Cylinder head also fits in the engine bay.

Tue Oct 15, 2024 9:30 am

In looking at the later vertical saab engines as found in the NG900/later 9000, 9-5, and first gen 9-3 I think all would go in quite easily and really just a matter of how close to the engine lid things are.

Tue Oct 15, 2024 9:55 am

Also a diesel bell housing may solve some problems. Any VW drawings out there? I have yet to find any good ones to work with.

I do see the Weddle sells a new one for $380

Wed Oct 16, 2024 6:09 am

What I can report early on here is that installing any of the "vertical" Saab 4 cylinder engines is simpler compared to the earlier "angled" engines as found in the early 9000, all Classic 900's, and 99's. The reasons why are simply because the vertical engines which are more traditional fit within the stock mounting bolts of the VW transaxle. An adapter plate is still needed....I think having a flywheel made that matches the Vanagon dimensions and has the bolt pattern for the Saab will save a lot of headaches and allow for the stock vw starter to be used.

I'm still working through whether the angled engine will work. Its advantage would be that there were many more non turbo versions, T5 fuel management can be readily adapted, there are some simple bolt on parts to create displacements up to about 2.5 liters without extensive machine work and mostly stock parts. ie a 2.1 liter block bored to 93mm or 94mm coupled with the crankshaft out of a 2.3 liter 9000 gives you 94/94 bore/stroke and almost 2.5 liters of displacement. So bore and hone and likely some custom pistons.

I've been playing around trying to create a CAD file of the saab plate but my current measuring equipment is limited. I'm either going to visit a friend and use his mill and DRO like a poor man's CMM to get all the relevant data points and then build a model from there or find some place local that offers inspection on a cmm that can provide me with hole centers, diameters, and peripheral points to build a model from. IN the mean time I'll get some wood to build some test templates from using old school transfer punches and drilling.