TheSamba.com :: View topic - Build me a type 1 engine that will go 250,000 miles

Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:20 am

My first Beetle, a '74 that I bought new from the dealer in high school, went 252,000 miles before it threw a rod :x It was the original 1600 cc AH-cased motor and would cruise all day at 75-78 MPH :)

We ran Beetles in our family business for over 20 years and had at least two motors exceed 200,000 miles, a 1300 cc and a 1500 cc (both have bullet-proof ultra-thick cylinders, so you just need to keep an eye on your valve adjustments). Mostly we traded the motors in at 150,000 miles, so as not to push our luck and get stranded :wink:

I've had two 1776's go past 100,000 miles and the next owners were still piling up the mileage, last I heard...

Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:48 am

Glenn wrote: It has to do with it being aircooled. It's the nature of the beast.

Glenn wrote: Higher heat = more wear

Glenn wrote:
It's all about the money. (Isn't it always?)

1,2,3. Glenn just keeps nailing it.

Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:52 am

subhuman wrote: like i said before, how much are you willing to spend :roll:

A new modern engine for most cars can be bought for 3 to 4 thousand. That would be a fair price. But like was said earlier, just buy two 2 thousand dollar motors and you are even. There must be cost effect ways to squeeze more out of little bug engines?

Dave

Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:18 am

I suggest you jump on it and when you get those solutions worked out, I'm sure you'll be happy to share that with us. :idea:

Metallurgy, design, tolerances, heat range, all these things affect it.

Modern engines have different valve trains, computerized delivery of spark and fuel, and less of the shortcomings of these engines. Better oiling, better solutions for crank thrust, better bearings, you name it. Modify these engines in that way and you don't have a VW engine anymore. The collective changes have collective affects, and collective effects are largely what causes an engine's wear and life to be.

The best thing you can do to increase life.. use the right chemicals, drive it nicely, and MAINTAIN it.

Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:36 am

danny6972 wrote: subhuman wrote: like i said before, how much are you willing to spend :roll:

A new modern engine for most cars can be bought for 3 to 4 thousand. That would be a fair price. But like was said earlier, just buy two 2 thousand dollar motors and you are even. There must be cost effect ways to squeeze more out of little bug engines?

Dave

With mass production come cost effectiveness, what may cost us over a $1000 for better quality one off components and coatings may only cost a mass producer $50.
Its a loosing battle without deep pockets.

The type4 engine has many of the type1's short falls designed out. They can be a 200,000 mile engine pretty easily.

Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:44 am

Just my 2cents

We ALL build and drive our VW's because we love the cars NOT because we are getting over 100,000 miles out of them. I did have one that had 150,000 before i sold it. And the cost of a stock VW motor is a LOT less then other motors... so it all comes out to be teh same..... So lets just build them and drive them until they blow and then redo it again..... Wooo Hooo

Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:16 am

I don't expect 250K from the Berg motor I'm building for the Kombi, but I do expect to be able to leave it in for the next ten years or so. Isn't that enough?

Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:20 pm

vwracerdave wrote: the rest of the 40 year old Bug will not last another 250,000 miles.

the sad truth. :cry:

Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:15 pm

Install pistons and cylinders that are significantly smaller than stock, re-jet or replace the carb accordingly and the engine will last longer. Less horsepower and revs equals less wear on the engine as well as better mileage. It wouldn't even cost a lot. The only thing is, the car will be a lot slower.

Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:17 pm

tstracy39 wrote: The only thing is, the car will be a lot slower.
Better to get a bicycle then.

Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:38 pm

melville wrote: I don't expect 250K from the Berg motor I'm building for the Kombi, but I do expect to be able to leave it in for the next ten years or so. Isn't that enough?

I think Gene Berg tried to design his engines to last 100,000 miles before rebuild with a valve job at 50,000 miles. Anything less than 100,000 miles he considered a poor return on investment for a daily driver.

Scott Novak

Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:02 pm

Guys Krusher beat me to it. Type 4's in bug do it all the time. My experiance, Type 1's lucky to make 90 k with out needing a valve job. Type 3 can go 120k. Same engine except the T-3 had better tolerances like weight between engine parts. Compare the manuals. BUt the big thing was it was Fuel injected, like one of the guy said about his sisters Mexican bug. But that is it for T-1.

How I got into T-4's in bugs was because I was into 914's. When looking for a 914 all the cars I found had at least 160k on the engines and still ran strong. They weighted 300lbs more then a bug.

I have been doing T-4 conversions for 20 years and I get my stats from countries that have been doing it even longer in Europe, mainly in the Netherlands, Sweden, Germany, France. T-4 go over 200k.

The bottom line is a T-4 was made to push a 2 ton bus into a head wind. It is simple logic if you put the same engine in a bug that weighs 1700lbs it will not be working hard. Mainly all the problems T-1's have are with getting hot. Heat is the killer. On top of that seeing the engine was made with a bus in mind it's parts are massive compared to a T-1, the heads are a third larger, which displaces heat better. T-1's worry about keeping cool, T-4 worry about getting to running temp around 180f. A full flow oil filter system. Massive bearing. Even at 200k most T-4's bottom ends need no machine work.
So there goes the theory it is air cooled and that is how it goes.
The best part is it is the largest Air cooled engine that will bolt right up to a bug and they do dip oil and smell and make a lot of noise, so damn it is still a car we can love, just longer.

Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:12 pm

[quote="nextgen"]The bottom line is a T-4 was made to push a 2 ton bus into a head wind. quote]

In the '70's when Type 4 motor were first put in the Bus, they actually had very poor longevity...it was not uncommon to have head problems in under 60,000 miles...

Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:27 am

neil68 wrote: nextgen wrote: Guys Krusher beat me to it. Type 4's in bug do it all the time. My experiance, Type 1's lucky to make 90 k with out needing a valve job. Type 3 can go 120k. Same engine except the T-3 had better tolerances like weight between engine parts. Compare the manuals. BUt the big thing was it was Fuel injected, like one of the guy said about his sisters Mexican bug. But that is it for T-1.

How I got into T-4's in bugs was because I was into 914's. When looking for a 914 all the cars I found had at least 160k on the engines and still ran strong. They weighted 300lbs more then a bug.

I have been doing T-4 conversions for 20 years and I get my stats from countries that have been doing it even longer in Europe, mainly in the Netherlands, Sweden, Germany, France. T-4 go over 200k.

The bottom line is a T-4 was made to push a 2 ton bus into a head wind. It is simple logic if you put the same engine in a bug that weighs 1700lbs it will not be working hard. Mainly all the problems T-1's have are with getting hot. Heat is the killer. On top of that seeing the engine was made with a bus in mind it's parts are massive compared to a T-1, the heads are a third larger, which displaces heat better. T-1's worry about keeping cool, T-4 worry about getting to running temp around 180f. A full flow oil filter system. Massive bearing. Even at 200k most T-4's bottom ends need no machine work.
So there goes the theory it is air cooled and that is how it goes.
The best part is it is the largest Air cooled engine that will bolt right up to a bug and they do dip oil and smell and make a lot of noise, so damn it is still a car we can love, just longer.

In the '70's when Type 4 motor were first put in the Bus, they actually had very poor longevity...it was not uncommon to have head problems in under 60,000 miles...

Those issues occured while propelling 4500-5,000 pound buses with less than 70 HP. They were compounded by closed minded mechanics with one track minds that didn't want to advance their knowledge to properly tune and understand the TIV engine. Driver's that didn't downshift early enough also didn't help things out. In fact VW went to the TIV engine in 1972 because of a lack of longevity associated with overworked 1600 TI based engines that had more failures than the TIV- if the TI was so great in a Bus, VW never would have spent the 10 million dollars to integrate the TIV into the Bus.

That same engine placed in a 2400 pound Porsche 912E has been known to go 321,000 miles and I have personally experienced this when a local lady that bought her 912E brand new in 1976 brought me that car in 2000. It had two valve jobs in the past, but with 321K on the odometer it had never had the case halves split and had never experienced a head failure, just routine maintenance and those two valve jobs. The engine was worn totally out, but the crank cleaned up with a .010 undersize and the case did not require an align bore!!! That engine, after my procedures is still on the road today and has well over 100K on it.

The TIV head problems are no more. Many companies have developed procedures and materials that eliminate the valve seat problems. These issues have been solved for more than 20 years and I have not experienced a valve seat failure in 13 years, thats with engines running as much as 30 pounds of boost, with engines in every VW and Porsche application operating on every Continent on this planet. earlier this year one of my engines built from a "kit" was able to make it half way around the globe in a heavy Bus filled with extra fuel, water and camping supplies. That engine was driven through Iran in the middle of the hottest time of the year on it's way to the Olympics in Beijing.

Those are just a few facts. These facts are necessary in a conversation like this when some people are not aware of the development that has produced today's type 4 engine and how effective that engine can be when coupled to a lightweight beetle with a proper conversion and design.

My personal 912E has 145K on the clock since I updated the engine to my specs in 2002. That car was my daily driver(everywhere) until mid last year when I grew afraid that I was going to get rear ended in a car that was one of 500 made. I drove the car at least 85 miles a day to and from my shop daily and it has been on trips as long as 17 hours non-stop. On top of that I have put over 2,000 miles on the car doing Porsche Club Driver's ED events over the years, where I would run the car against the rev limiter in every gear on a Road Course for 45 minute stents, sometimes holding off 911s and much higher HP cars with only 127HP.

After 145K, here are some facts about that engine:

-The engine was built from primarily used parts, the original 100K mile crank wasn't even reground (didn't need it).
- I only updated the heads, installed new bearings, cam and lifters and rebored the original cylinders to accept Keith Black 96mm pistons. Most every other part in the engine was used. Total cost to "rebuild" this engine was 1200.00 in 2002.
- The last time I adjusted the valves was February 3rd 2003, prior to a PCA Driver's Ed event. Since then I have only checked the valves, none needing adjustment. (made possible by cryo enhancement and very even running temperatures)
- Two months ago when I used the car for a week of commuting to and from the shop I still logged 34 MPG, with 145K on the clock.
- The engine has went as far as 23,000 miles on a single oil change but I haven't changed the oil at any interval less than 10K miles.
-The engine has ran Royal Purple Synthetic oil since day one, after the dyno session.

Now, The purpose of my post isn't to say that the TIV engine should be what you use to meet this goal of 250K miles, because it may not be. It is important to explore all the possibilities when trying to reach such a tall order and that means you should get Joe's book and my video on the subject and then read and study and see if it all makes sense to you.

If you believe that an engine that starts out bigger with as much as 100 stock HP is a wise way to begin the project, you might think like Joe and I do as well as thousands of others who have looked to the TIV conversion to provide a great bolt in daily driver engine to their vehicle. My biggest appreciation of the TIV has been the ability to just drive the car, not having to pull the engine and not having to screw with anything... That doesn't mean a rebuild, that means anything...

I'll close by saying that not many people have the "grit" to drive a VW daily as a primary means of transportation in today's world. Being the guy that people with high MPG desires generally come to, I can say the number of those who want to go 100K miles with any engine in their VW has dramatically reduced over the past 5 years. Today people's kids are spoiled and our country s afraid of driving anything that doesn't have 27 safety systems employed. Heaven help if your car lacks A/C or if you have to wipe the frost off the inside of your windshield with a towel...

What I am trying to say is you must really consider how many years you'll be driving the car. It took me 5 years to clock 100K on my 912E and that was driving it dramatically more than most people ever would... As the cars get older and people get more spoiled (and you get older) will you really be driving 250K miles?

You won't be able to go 250K on a single clutch and you more than likely won't be able to go more than 50K on a valve job. You also could get a bad tank of gas that takes out the engine, because thats all it takes to kill either a TI or a TIV with high mileage.

I drive a lot, more than 30K per year on average between all my air-cooled cars. I don't believe that I'd ever try to build a 250K mile engine, because I know that I'd get tired of the power and it's characteristics before it was worn out- (The 912E engine is tired and now the car is slower so I am building a new engine for the car, from another core)

When I built my 912E engine, I never intended to drive the car on more than just weekends... I fell in love with it's handling, braking and the driving experience it provided, so I drove it more and more. It has great heat, A/C and a sunroof and can be driven comfortably 4 seasons a year- not true of most VWs driven outside of SoCal.

If you do intend to go 250K miles, the challenge will be great using today's quality of parts.

Some of us feel that the TIV is a superior platform. Others do not, but very few of those have first hand experience with a TIV properly converted into a beetle.

Just do your homework and think about how long it will take you to drive 250K... You'll more than likely see what my client base has.. Our development of 100K mile engines has dropped because no one asks for more than 75K these days.

Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:35 am

OK
How about building a 1600 with a countered weighted crank cut for T4 main bearings and stock 85.5 P&C's with a very mild cam and use the best oil you can? [synthetic ?] maybe even single port heads. how long do you think this combo would last with proper maintaince?

Earthquake

Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:51 am

Adding the TIV main may increase main strength to the crank, but it removes material from the T1 case...

Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:49 pm

A lot of good points where made in this post, many know, an another reason newer vehicles engine’s last so much longer is because of their transmissions (& older 5 speed 914&912 also); 5,6 & 7 speed transmissions allow engines to go more miles with les RPM per mile = les wear per mile…

danny6972, Building an affordable Long lasting T1 engine would probably include the following:

All applicable parts balance and blue printed
1600cc 69x88.5 with quality CW crank(rod ratio is close to 2 for low cylinder wear)
Best quality Rings, barrels & forged pistons available
Stock heads with best available Guides, Valve seat & stainless valves
Porsche style swivel feet valve adjusters
Programmable fuel injection (if brave MegaSquirt)
Electronically Controlled Hi Energy ignition
Full Flow Oil Filter
Use of synthetic oil after break in
Oil Pressure, Cylinder Head & oil Temp monitoring devices
Complete and in perfect working order cooling system with T1 Dog house or better (Better = DTM)
If to be use in bug/Ghia; install late model T1 3.88 transmission with synthetic gear lube
Proper warm-up period and right foot control when driving a cold engine
Meticulous and consistent maintenance schedule

Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:35 pm

neil68 wrote: nextgen wrote: The bottom line is a T-4 was made to push a 2 ton bus into a head wind.

In the '70's when Type 4 motor were first put in the Bus, they actually had very poor longevity...it was not uncommon to have head problems in under 60,000 miles...

Yeah, but with the right seats installed with the right press fit they last a long time. The machinist who held my hand through my first T4 build had for shop trucks two early bay pickups (a single and a doublecab) that he had converted to T4 in the 70s. When I was dealing with him in 2002, they both had in excess of 250K and are probably still going.

My 'build and ignore' T1 for the Kombi looks a lot like Lionheart94010's recipe, but with a stock cam and stock 34 PICT 3. The last item in his list "meticulous and consistent maintenance schedule" is possibly the most important. I keep a logbook in all my VWs and in it I record the as found condition regarding valve clearance, ignition timing, and other tuning issues. I track fuel mileage with each fill-up in the logbook as well, and every quart of oil added is recorded. This helps a lot in spotting trends and dealing with stuff before it's a problem.

Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:49 pm

The main reason that the Type-1 motor wont last much more than 100,000 miles is that it is Aircooled.
What happens is that the case and heads cycle between expanding and contracting depending on the temp of the case and oil. This expansion and contraction is the main cause of premature valve failure because the clearances constantly change. Even when you carefully adjust your valves religously they are really only adjusted correctly for only a specific temperature. That being around 200F. If the motor runs cooler than that temperature the valves will be loose and you risk flattening the cam or pushrods. If the temp is hotter, the clearance isnt enough and you loose your dwell and the exhaust valve burns due to insufficient time being completly closed.
Many people post how they loose power and the motor stopps when the motor gets hot. This is mainly because the valves are not completly closing due to expansion of the case and heads. Every time this happens you are one step closer to a valve job...
The bottom end should last quite a long time if you dont either over rev or over heat your motor. But just one 6500 RPM secion in a motor not built for it or one extended 250 F drive will take many miles off the bottom end.
As Jake has mentioned many times, Balancing everything in your bottom end will make it last much longer.
Probably the best thing to make the top end last longer is to add hydraulic lifters and remove the shroud once in a while and wash off all the much on the heads.

Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:09 pm

Jake Raby wrote:
I'll close by saying that not many people have the "grit" to drive a VW daily as a primary means of transportation in today's world.

Well that's what I'm doing. I plan on driving my bugs everywhere all year around and I live in Michigan. What takes grit is buying a car that loses more value driving it off the lot than what you can buy a good running VW for.

Dave