TheSamba.com :: View topic

Thu Oct 09, 2025 2:31 pm

Hi everyone!

Been reading the other 009 thread and have a question about my own situation.

I will have a 2276, Tims Stage II heads, SCAT C35 cam, Weber 44's, Bug Pack 1-5/8" SS U-Bend with round through muffler.

I have a MSD 6AL Analog box with RPM chips and a Blaster II round coil. My distributor is a German Bosch 009 with what appears to be a Pertronics pick up assembly.

With all the talk about electronic programable distributors, is there a "truly better" setup than what I have now? Let me rephrase that, within a reasonable dollar amount, is there a better setup?

I'll be street driving this sand rail along with dune and trail action.

Thu Oct 09, 2025 3:04 pm

I run points in a Bosch 010 in a 2180 with Steve Tims Stage II and a FK8 with IDAs. I use NOS Bosch points but highly recommend SMP (Standard Motor Products) points and condensers.

Thu Oct 09, 2025 4:36 pm

Ive set up a few MSD’s on buggys and i dont really care for them. I dont see the point of having multiple sparks below 3000 rpm… and im not so sure that some of those multi sparks dont jump posts in a stock dizzy either as ive seen some issues that went away after 3000 rpm.
The main reason id stuck with them was 1 because the buggy already had it and 2 an MSD BTM was a little easier sending someone down the road in if they had problems and needed to replace parts when they lived out of state and couldnt just come back for me to fiddle with a Black Box.
Aside from boost timing retard i see no reason to run an MSD in a VW.

Thu Oct 09, 2025 11:57 pm

BFB wrote: Ive set up a few MSD’s on buggys and i dont really care for them. I dont see the point of having multiple sparks below 3000 rpm… and im not so sure that some of those multi sparks dont jump posts in a stock dizzy either as ive seen some issues that went away after 3000 rpm.
The main reason id stuck with them was 1 because the buggy already had it and 2 an MSD BTM was a little easier sending someone down the road in if they had problems and needed to replace parts when they lived out of state and couldnt just come back for me to fiddle with a Black Box.
Aside from boost timing retard i see no reason to run an MSD in a VW.

On a Volkswagen, the MSD has multi sparks to 6,000 rpms. And, all those sparks are more powerful then lesser ignitions. I think you read that 3k rpm and forgot thats for 8cyl and we are talking 4 cyl.

Fri Oct 10, 2025 12:05 am

Dan,

The best bang for your buck would be to get a Blaster SS for $50. A noticable step above the blaster 2 and no drawbacks. Its more efficient design https://www.ebay.com/itm/406212963194?_skw=blaster...BMlrfVzrlm

The best would be the USA made MSD 8253 but they retail for $350. Here is a barely used one for $200 https://www.ebay.com/itm/136561254890?_skw=msd+825...R_av6M65Zg

Fri Oct 10, 2025 6:30 am

jpaull wrote: BFB wrote: Ive set up a few MSD’s on buggys and i dont really care for them. I dont see the point of having multiple sparks below 3000 rpm… and im not so sure that some of those multi sparks dont jump posts in a stock dizzy either as ive seen some issues that went away after 3000 rpm.
The main reason id stuck with them was 1 because the buggy already had it and 2 an MSD BTM was a little easier sending someone down the road in if they had problems and needed to replace parts when they lived out of state and couldnt just come back for me to fiddle with a Black Box.
Aside from boost timing retard i see no reason to run an MSD in a VW.

On a Volkswagen, the MSD has multi sparks to 6,000 rpms. And, all those sparks are more powerful then lesser ignitions. I think you read that 3k rpm and forgot thats for 8cyl and we are talking 4 cyl.

by your reasoning , if you put an MSD on a V12 then itd only have multi spark to 1980 rpm ....
or on a Vtwin itd have multi spark to 12,000 rpm.
I dont think you understand why the manual says it quits at 3000....

by that same logic youd need to put a 3000 rpm pill in the MSD box if you want your rev limiter set to 6000.
none of that logic makes any damn sense at all.

part of my previous point was also that you dont need the hotter spark MSD puts out, again, just risking spark jump for no added benefits

Fri Oct 10, 2025 8:37 am

Dan_Lockwood wrote: Hi everyone!

Been reading the other 009 thread and have a question about my own situation.

I will have a 2276, Tims Stage II heads, SCAT C35 cam, Weber 44's, Bug Pack 1-5/8" SS U-Bend with round through muffler.

I have a MSD 6AL Analog box with RPM chips and a Blaster II round coil. My distributor is a German Bosch 009 with what appears to be a Pertronics pick up assembly.

With all the talk about electronic programable distributors, is there a "truly better" setup than what I have now? Let me rephrase that, within a reasonable dollar amount, is there a better setup?

I'll be street driving this sand rail along with dune and trail action.

You already have most of the stuff.

MSD Blaster SS may be a good choice for what you have there.

If programmability is really what you're after, you can get a bluetooth 123 and basically start over (make sure you have a matching coil & wires - someone else will have to comment on that), which may be just fine, or you can integrate a Black Box or the newer MSD 6AL Plus with bluetooth/programmability/iphone interface into what you already have. There's also the old-school MSD 6AL Programmable, which MSD now has on clearance because, well, it's old-school, the interface is a little weird, and I suspect they didn't sell that many. And you'd need to add a separate MAP sensor which adds some cost. And, strangely enough, it does have a CARB exemption ID, not that that matters much to almost anyone.

With the programmables, you just have to lock out the advance on your 009. And it goes without saying you really need to know what you're doing with timing curves, or consult someone who does.

Fri Oct 10, 2025 9:06 am

BFB wrote:

part of my previous point was also that you dont need the hotter spark MSD puts out, again, just risking spark jump for no added benefits
Define "need" please.
i agree with you on the multi discharge. other variables in the CDI determines where it morphs into 1 fat spark. Typically around 3300 on a 4 cylinder.

Fri Oct 10, 2025 10:23 am

BFB wrote: jpaull wrote: BFB wrote: Ive set up a few MSD’s on buggys and i dont really care for them. I dont see the point of having multiple sparks below 3000 rpm… and im not so sure that some of those multi sparks dont jump posts in a stock dizzy either as ive seen some issues that went away after 3000 rpm.
The main reason id stuck with them was 1 because the buggy already had it and 2 an MSD BTM was a little easier sending someone down the road in if they had problems and needed to replace parts when they lived out of state and couldnt just come back for me to fiddle with a Black Box.
Aside from boost timing retard i see no reason to run an MSD in a VW.

On a Volkswagen, the MSD has multi sparks to 6,000 rpms. And, all those sparks are more powerful then lesser ignitions. I think you read that 3k rpm and forgot thats for 8cyl and we are talking 4 cyl.

by your reasoning , if you put an MSD on a V12 then itd only have multi spark to 1980 rpm ....
or on a Vtwin itd have multi spark to 12,000 rpm.
I dont think you understand why the manual says it quits at 3000....

by that same logic youd need to put a 3000 rpm pill in the MSD box if you want your rev limiter set to 6000.
none of that logic makes any damn sense at all.

part of my previous point was also that you dont need the hotter spark MSD puts out, again, just risking spark jump for no added benefits

Regarding the multi spark vs cylinders, I'm wrong, You are correct. The 3k rpm doesnt matter how many cylinders as the multi spark is crank rotation time, not the amount of time to fire a cylinder(s). My mistake 100%.

As far as the RPM pill, thats related to how you set or not set the MSD. Most are defaulted to 8cylinder, so if you didnt reset it to 4 cylinder, you would need a 3k pill to have a 6k redline.

Regarding not "needing" it, of course i disagree there. But you do you. Have the right coil with the MSD and its a worthwhile noticeable difference that benifits everyday drivers or racers alike.

Fri Oct 10, 2025 11:16 am

Alstrup wrote: BFB wrote:

part of my previous point was also that you dont need the hotter spark MSD puts out, again, just risking spark jump for no added benefits
Define "need" please.
i agree with you on the multi discharge. other variables in the CDI determines where it morphs into 1 fat spark. Typically around 3300 on a 4 cylinder.

I was really tempted to post " Webster's definition of need... " haha!

by need, I mean that I think the average vw engine will run sufficient ( Oprn reference there ) on a regular 30k -40k coil. and that the MSD box only adds an unnecessary complexity to the system for not much gain if any.
I am not knocking MSD , they've been out for a long time and I think have proven quality and performance.
and maybe im missing something here? maybe it would be more beneficial in a larger bore engine? im open to learning something that maybe ive missed.
what I think there is more need of is understanding timing than just " more advance and hottest spark possible = better ignition'. I mean they come out with all these products but most people dont have enough understanding of it to make use of the products. which is another reason why I say its not 'needed'.
and for all transparency, I fell in that category too. when I bought my 1st Black box I had no idea what the hell I was doing I bet I tinkered and studied up on ignition for 2 years before I felt I had a decent understanding of it.

if someone has the knowledge to make use of the product, then sure. if its not going to make an overly complex system that will be hard to diagnose in the woods / off road, sure.
maybe Jpaull is right and has noticed benefits , I just havent. kinda like ive put Black Boxes on everyday VW's and they started better, were more responsive , and might have gotten better fuel economy. but if theres an issue those people are probably towing it in to me to fix. so, even though I love the Black Box and have seen benefits, I dont even see that its needed for the average person when weighing benefit vs. additional cost & complexity.
I feel like I could have said this with a lot less words....

BTW Jpaull, sorry if I sounded condescending didnt mean to , really meant to be more of a smart ass

Fri Oct 10, 2025 3:12 pm

Wrt ignition spark capacity. We have been through this before, if not elsewhere then in the large ignition thread Jpaull initiated a couple of years back. So I will only line up the essentials.
On a stock street engine you can get by with surprisingly little spark capacity, because, dcr is low and you "just" add some timing to compensate for a slow flame propagandation.
But, increasing the spark capacity to say a true 40 Kv coil along with increasing the plug gap to make the coil work a little more will give you better warm starts along with less HC especially in the exhaust.
Go one notch up again with some more compression etc. a true 40 Kv coil sort of becomes mandatory if you want to keep a decent timing and emission.
CDI´s are usually most interesting when you go into camshafts with large overlaps, big carbs, heads etc. as the mix quality is usually quite poor in the lower rpms. There the multispark really begins to make a difference.
Race engines which pull a lot of rpms can get by on surprisingly "little" coil capacity as long as the saturation time matches the rpm band.

Now, IRL with engines pople can relate to, Take the everso popular combo, W110 cam, dual ICT´s or Kadrons, 4 into 1 header, a 009 and a stock or blue Bosch coil. It idles like shit, and doesnt sort itself out until about 2000 rpms. and even there the burn quality is sub par. Take the very same engine and boost the blue Bosch with even a mild CDI like the Streetfire or similar, along with playing a little with timing, such an odd combo engine can idle, - not perfect, but very much better, as well as start bleeding power significantly earlier, because you actually ignite the mixture properly and in time. Remember, a poor mix needs a lot of burn time.
Running points in an engine which regularly sees more than about 5500 rpm is just stupid, unless you want to prove a point, because points WILL NOT be precise once rpms increase.So you effectively loose power and increase risk of detonation.

I am fully aware that the following is not for the average guy. But in the skunkworks we are now working with ignition systems so efficient that you can increase CR with at least 0,5 and pull 2-4 degrees out of the WOT timing, but they need at least 65ish mJ spark capacity, preferably more 100-110, great.At the same time the burn is so efficient that you can run Lambda 1,2-1,3 on cruise (if your engine is up to running lean burn) The next upside of this is that even on old engines like ACVW´s, Porsche, Jaguar, MG´s etc. etc. you can reduce the HC to less than 100 on cruise and 400ish on WOT. On top of this we see power increases from about 5 hp/1000cc up to a whopping 8,5 hp/1000cc. SOLELY from improved burn and more efficient timing.