TheSamba.com :: View topic - rust treatment- navy jelly

Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:23 pm

Sweet mary jayne, today I reduced the interior of my bay. she looks pretty good! going to build a small flatbed/storage locker out of birch in the rear for tools and gear.

my uncle recommended navy jelly to treat the rust?

navy jelly...... hmmmmm. anyone else think that's a good idea?

Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:32 pm

I believe it is mostly phosphoric acid. There are many threads on phosphoric acid here at the samba.

www.loctiteproducts.com/tds/S_TRMT_NAVAL_tds.pdf

Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:30 pm

Yes....and for what it is.....Naval Jelly is frightfully expensive.....about $9 for 16 oz or $40 for an 80 oz jug.....and fairly slow and low performing.

Just get Ospho or some of the other metal preps with phosphoric acid.

The best I have found is Jasco prep and primer....about $35-40 a gallon but about 3x the strength of normal Ospho....you can use it straight or dilute with water to ospho like but stronger with about 2:1 water. Ray

Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:18 am

I've used naval jelly many times. Not saying it's the best choice today though.

Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:00 am

Though I haven't tried it myself yet, POR-15 seems to be fairly highly regarded. Just tried Naval Jelly on the floor of our 82 and really don't like the results. We're going with POR-15.

This is just one example. There are many.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuDcvwEIkPI

Talk to shops, it's supposedly really good stuff.

Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:24 am

Mark70baja wrote: Though I haven't tried it myself yet, POR-15 seems to be fairly highly regarded. Just tried Naval Jelly on the floor of our 82 and really don't like the results. We're going with POR-15.

This is just one example. There are many.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuDcvwEIkPI

Talk to shops, it's supposedly really good stuff.

POR-15...is a "coating"...with "SOME"....rust converting properties because it contains some phosphoric acid.

You need to be really sure you are using it correctly on the CORRECT problem/application. There have been more poor results than good because of this and its not the POR-15 products fault.

For the original poster in this thread....POR-15 would be a disaster until he does some footwork.

POR--15 is designed to convert THIN...non-crusty rust into iron phosphate as a primer for itself...and part oof this is its prep solution which also contains phosphoric acid.

POR-15 and other products like it...REQUIRE some surface rust in order to adhere properly...because the conversion of that rust to iron phosphate is what creates the surface primer the POR-15 needs.

HOWEVER....if the rust is deeper than about .001"-.002" thick...neither the metal prep for POR-15 or the POR-15 itself...can penetrate that thickness of rust to convert the rust all the way to base metal....so you can get continued rust growth...and poor adhesion.

Either start with muriatic acid for serious crusty rust and rust throughs...and be sure you rinse and neutralize to control it........or use a high strength phosphoric acid product like Ospho (as a bare minimum)....or Jasco metal prep and prime...full strength.

The Ospho has several ingredients including a buffer. It will convert more rust thickness than the POR-15 metal prep....but not much more.

The Jasco however.....with about 3X the Solution strength...if kept wt...will diissolve rust down to a bluish stain on the bare metal about .0002" thick.

But...you have to watch it while it works and then rinse and neutralize. If you let it dry full strength after eating rust...it deposits a tough oxide residue that while its very good primer and will not re-rust....is evry uneven and needs to be sanded.

EDIT: most of my life until the mid 90's....Naval Jelly was all the average guy on the street knew to do this kind of work. In the 80's....it was stronger. They had some issues and reduced the strength in the 90's.

Naval Jelly is a jellied version of phosphoric acid with buffers...because they want it to cling so you can leave it on for a while...because you have to...because its weak compared to the other products discussed here.

You used to have to look for Naval Jelly back in the 1970's and 1980's. It was a semi-professional product. Now you can get it at the grocery store and wal-mart. Back in the day....it did some seriously good work.

Now...the most it is really up to...is removing corrosion from threads on bathroom fixtures, bolts, small parts and "home owner" level items.

For the cost and small quantity...being slow and weaker....makes it very pricey for large expanses of automotive derusting
Ray

Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:47 pm

As you know, Greenwood's advice is sound and strong.

Jasco is a competitively priced rust killer.

1 quart is $5.02 at Lowes.

In the pic, the left side of the bottle was treated for 5 min. Everywhere else is untreated.

Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:47 pm

Let it dry overnight.

Oh...by the way.....that stuff eats concrete, aluminum and will remove the cad plating from certain parts so be careful with it. Wear goggles and gloves. Its an acid.

Ray

Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:44 pm

raygreenwood wrote: Wear goggles and gloves...

And shoes.

Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:57 pm

richparker wrote: raygreenwood wrote: Wear goggles and gloves...

And shoes.

As if we need to be told that.....but I have been there as well.....and had to tell myself that :lol:
Ray

Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:39 am

Like I said, I haven't tried POR-15 yet, it's a suggestion that I've read about others using quite often, for the OP. POR-15 has been around for quite some time and is used by many. Both are viable options and have their uses, but which is best for your situation, only you can decide.

Again, it would be best to get input from shops that actually do and are paid to do this type of work to see what they would recommend. You can still do the work yourself. In the end, you just want the rust not to return. The shops livelihoods depend on what they do, so...

Haven't tried the Jasco stuff either. Nearest Lowes is over 3-hours away. I'm curious about top coating with it. What's the procedure? Prime and paint? Another coating? What is used to keep future water out and the remaining rust down?

Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:53 am

Mark70baja wrote: Like I said, I haven't tried POR-15 yet, it's a suggestion that I've read about others using quite often, for the OP. POR-15 has been around for quite some time and is used by many. Both are viable options and have their uses, but which is best for your situation, only you can decide.

Again, it would be best to get input from shops that actually do and are paid to do this type of work to see what they would recommend. You can still do the work yourself. In the end, you just want the rust not to return. The shops livelihoods depend on what they do, so...

Haven't tried the Jasco stuff either. Nearest Lowes is over 3-hours away. I'm curious about top coating with it. What's the procedure? Prime and paint? Another coating? What is used to keep future water out and the remaining rust down?

Again......as many people miss this point. There is a reason they call it PREP AND PRIME....... and it is the benefit and use of phosphoric acid.....which IS the key ingredient in POR-15.......is that the black iron phosphate produced by conversion of rust by phosphoric acid...........IS THE BEST PRIMER.....hands down. Better than zinc diphosphate....better than self etching primer.

Yes...mif you spray a primer over the top of converted iron phospahte for sandability and being able to get a smooth, surface.....its just that much better.

The real key, with rust converters is to get the rust down to a thickness that the ruat converter can convert....from top to bottom.....meaning from surface to metal.

This is THE mistake most people make with any rust converter....and POR-15.....and rust bullet etc. They want to use it as a "magic bullet".....to avoid doing the real work necessary....which may be long hours of sanding and grinding to get large area rust down to a manageable thickness...wherein in rust converters can be CORRECTLY employed.....or......cutting out rust parts that arecbeyond and welding in new metal. Ray

Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:32 am

There is no reason at all for any confrontation. This is an educational source, where someone is trying to learn about ways to deal with a problem.

You have your way of doing things, others have their ways. No two body repair persons will EVER do everything the same. Some like and swear by things others absolutely hate. That's life and if you can't deal with that then it's going to be a very confrontational life.

Please let others ask questions or explain their ways without constantly trying to overpower them with your input. The OP asked for suggestions, not confrontation.

Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:16 am

Hurt feelings alert

If you take what ray says as confrontational.. You have nothing to learn from him. I have learned more from his discussion posts than almost any other single contributer to the site, especially when he passes on his experience with chemicals.

That is all.

Sun Jun 07, 2015 12:38 pm

Thank you.....I was not trying to be confrontational. I am just looking at this....as I noted, and as you note.....from a chemical process point of view.

Personally. ....I have quite a bit of experience with chemical rust converters in both auto and industrial. This process and mechanism is well known......and it does not matter in that respect......what some people "like" to use....or how some people "like" to use a product.....I could care less....and its irrelevant to the information I posted.

In fact....what I posted is pretty much a distillation of the information in both POR and Rust bullet's information sheets.

They tell you and warn you about surface prep, prep chemicals, temperature, degreasing and roughening..etc....etc.....they warn you about possible modes of failure.

My beef with them is that in the spirt of KISS (keep it, simple stupid).....which is patently stupid.......they give you no information about the actual chemical reaction(s) that makes their product work.

If you had that info....even on a troubleshooting document somehwere on their website.....many people who have failed with these products may have possibly been able to troubleshoot either their pending usage....or their failure.

As a point of record....there have been a zillion failures with, POR-15. Many people across the internet ranting in their car, machinery or farm implement threads....about how bad POR-15 sucks....and it rusted again blah, blah, blah......and in most of these threads when you read them and look from a REQUIRED chemical reaction point of view.....you find...usually...all kinds of potential prep stages that were missed, done poorly...mor just not, even tracked.

Its rarely the product that is wrong. Its almost always the person applying it. Ray

Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:43 pm

That's not what the OP asked. You put out information overload by ranting about how POR-15 sucks. Noting its failures, rather than successes. I'm sure many have used your method successfully, Never said anyone had failed using it, though I'm sure many regret its use and possibly legality. I asked about top coating it. You again jump to confrontation with the POR-15, blah, blah, blah comments.

I too have quite a bit of experience in chemicals and in the automotive body and paint industry. Ran the Allied Trades sections (Body Shop) for the Air Forces largest vehicle maintenance fleet in the world for nine out of the 12-years I was there. Yes the Air Force actually has its own body men/women. Guess where this fleet was, you guessed it. Ramstein Air Force Base, Germany. VW, Mercedes, we all loved the training courses we used to get directly from them. Used a whole lot of real Naval Jelly. Germany uses very corrosive road salts on the Autobahns.

After retirement from the Air Force I went to work for several body shops and then PPG Automotive Paints for a while until full retirement. But this happened long ago, Germany was during the production years of the Vanagon. I was working them daily when they were brand new.

Sorry for the thread diversion vacillator. Non-intentional.

Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:22 pm

Mark70baja wrote: That's not what the OP asked. You put out information overload by ranting about how POR-15 sucks. Noting its failures, rather than successes. I'm sure many have used your method successfully, Never said anyone had failed using it, though I'm sure many regret its use and possibly legality. I asked about top coating it. You again jump to confrontation with the POR-15, blah, blah, blah comments.

I too have quite a bit of experience in chemicals and in the automotive body and paint industry. Ran the Allied Trades sections (Body Shop) for the Air Forces largest vehicle maintenance fleet in the world for nine out of the 12-years I was there. Yes the Air Force actually has its own body men/women. Guess where this fleet was, you guessed it. Ramstein Air Force Base, Germany. VW, Mercedes, we all loved the training courses we used to get directly from them. Used a whole lot of real Naval Jelly. Germany uses very corrosive road salts on the Autobahns.

After retirement from the Air Force I went to work for several body shops and then PPG Automotive Paints for a while until full retirement. But this happened long ago, Germany was during the production years of the Vanagon. I was working them daily when they were brand new.

Sorry for the thread diversion vacillator. Non-intentional.

Dude....you need to QUIT SKIMMING AND BROADEN YOUR ATTENTION SPAN.....AND GROW A THICKER SKIN.

Not once here...or anywhere....DID I NOTE...THAT POR-15 SUCKS.

Pay attention. I noted POR-15.....is not the problem....not once.....but twice.

But you can cause it to fail if you dont mind the requirements of the chemical reaction its success is based upon.

If this is information overload for you....perhaps you should buy an even simpler car....or take the bus.

Also bear in mind that the large amount of information....good information. ...that I am willing to take the time to give......didnt cost you DICK.......so skip it.....or STFU and get off my NOW confrontational ass.

Ray

Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:35 pm

127 posts vs 7612 valued posts

This seems like an obvious mismatch.

:popcorn:

Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:55 pm

BUSBOSS wrote: 127 posts vs 7612 valued posts

This seems like an obvious mismatch.

:popcorn:

But see.....I dont know that. Just because he is relatively new in post count....does not mean that the poster does not have a ton of knowledge and experience. I just think that he or she is hung up kn long posts.

Call it my pet peeve or part of my personality......I would rather take the time to fully answer a, question or address a problem....with information I know to be correct....or at least a variant of how to do something that I have actually done and proven......than to sitcbe anw watch days of guessing game one liners.

That and I tyoe fast....and have a large archive I am always working on the organization of.....and many times I just excerpt previous posts.

The other end of that pet peeve is that all of us are guilty of "skimming"...sometimes and not getting the point or missing information. I try hard not to do that.

But it truly pisses me off when someone attributes a quote or information to me that I did not say or write.
I did not say that POR-15 sucks. Its a great product. ......I simply stated that its a fact that many, many people have failed with it.......mainly because they mis-applied it, used it where they should have used another type of product or missed a detail in prep.

I also noted that many people across the internet world....have noted that POR-15 sucks......and that most of them missdx xetails that I noted above.....and that its rarely the products fault. Ray

Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:29 am

I also was concerned about spraying off the excess Phosphoric Acid into the driveway, yard, etc.

But turns out that diluted phosphates add nutrients to soil. AND Diluted phosphate is great for growing citrus as a soil additive.

So I'm not going to plant an orange orchard in honor of you guys and open a open a bottle of wine to share in the shade. But I thought of doing it.

Thanks ALL for your feedback, you sent me and others on our way forward. That's what it's all about.

SAMBA!