TheSamba.com :: View topic - Using Beetle torsion housing with VIN in sand rail?

Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:59 pm

So, I've seen quite a few sand rails where people use the torsion setup and everything behind it for their tube frame sand rail, but most people seem to cut behind the part where the VIN is stamped (a few inches forward of the shifter coupler). Why is that? Technically and legally if you kept the section with the VIN its still a VW bug and you can register it on the road without a bunch of red tape. Is there a problem where that section of the torsion housing interferes with a sand rail chassis in some way? Anyone have pics of a sand rail build using the torsion section of a bug pan along with the VIN? I have a Beetle I'm pulling the body off to use the pan for a sand rail/tunnel buggy sort of build, I found a sand rail bare tube frame for $300 local and I want to keep this all street legal. Floors are completely gone on the pan too, so I'd have no remorse cutting the tunnel out and using the tube frame.

Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:27 pm

Technically (at least) in California any new constriction that does not resemble or easily recognizable as original origin of car can not be registered as "such" a car....

If you are registering a BAJA for most part visually recognized as a "beetle" its legal to do it by name/model designated by original VIN.

If it is a sand rail or fiberglass dune buggy and does not visually match know body style such as a beetle then it is SPCN (SPecial CoNstruction)...

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/vr/spcnsreg

This line from above section sort of defines everything...

Example: A Volkswagen "Beetle" with modified fenders, engine compartment lid, and front end, but still recognizable as a Volkswagen is not considered a specially constructed vehicle

I do not know what rules are for state you are in, but in Calif, a misrepresented build can lead to a ticket and confiscation of vehicle by authorities and that is a nightmare you do not even want to go near....

Before you make rash assumptions better get real familiar with your states DMV/DOT policies...

Al little tour through this page may bring a little clarity to your registration assumptions...

http://www.semasan.com/semaga/TagTitleToolbox_NY.pdf

Dale

Wed Jul 22, 2015 6:59 pm

I understand that, every state is different, I'm in NY, I'm gonna look further into it. I just want to know if theres any reason I couldn't incorporate the section of the tunnel that has the VIN into a sand rail build. I don't know why most people just hack all that off at the torsion tubes. I'm just looking for a technical answer about this not legal advice.

Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:41 pm

stevensj13 wrote: Why is that? Technically and legally if you kept the section with the VIN its still a VW bug and you can register it on the road without a bunch of red tape.

stevensj13 wrote: I'm just looking for a technical answer about this not legal advice.
Um... you did say legally.
The major problem with registering it as a beetle is, it is NOT a beetle.
Yes the engine, transaxle and front suspension plus more can be used from the beetle.
But it does not look like a beetle in anyway.

Also yes I'm sure you can trim the tunnel to fit the sandrail chassis, although most of the time it's useless to have the tunnel chassis identification numbers.
It's also less atractive to the eyes.

Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:44 pm

I was worried this was gonna turn into a debate about legality. Sure enough...

Can't be any worse than the many people that just take a VW title and stamp that VIN somewhere on their tube chassis rails and claim its a bug.

Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:52 pm

If it has one, What is this thing tittled as?

Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:03 pm

Not to mention the vin needs to be somewhere where the cop can see it when he pulls you over he's not gonna want to look behind your seat. In Michigan you get a ticket if you don't get a new Vin number applied underneath the windshield. People used to use blog titles on their sand rails but it's well-known that doesn't fly anymore

Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:06 pm

My initial plan was to use the entire bug pan as it is when you take the body off, but with a tube cage on it and all the necessary legal accessories, lights, wipers, windshield, ect. Thats reasonable. I found a bare sand rail tube chassis with no rear torsion housing or anything, and no front beam, for $300 completely assembled local for sale and considered basically using that in place of the floor pans and majority of the tunnel in the build. I might just stick to the original plan.

Thu Jul 23, 2015 5:49 am

stevensj13 wrote: I was worried this was gonna turn into a debate about legality. Sure enough...

Can't be any worse than the many people that just take a VW title and stamp that VIN somewhere on their tube chassis rails and claim its a bug.

Yes but its all about legality.... Why do you think it gets harder and harder to register a special constructions vehicle.... Its becasue ideas and concepts specially like your and illegal actions by others have made it necessary for registering agencies to create more defined laws to get proper compliance to "states" and "Federal DOT" requirements....

Yes you idea sparked a fire storm, so why did you even start the thread.... You have obviously not read other posting about registrations and wanted to start your on brouhaha....

Just be sure you are ready to prove your point to registering agency your tube frame/tunnel chassis sand rail is a full blow Volkswagen sedan....

Dale

Thu Jul 23, 2015 5:56 am

71StandardReduction wrote: If it has one, What is this thing tittled as?

In Calif it would be legally a VOLKSWAGEN SEDAN becasue it has a recognizable VW Beetle Body, although "running gear" appears to be from 4WD pickup or jeep (front engine, 4 wheel drive) ... Only requirement for running gear is engine is smog legal for year of registration and has good brakes..

Can you imaging the response if its stolen and local and state police radio says be on look out for "85 Toyota Pickup" or if you are stopped and response to registration enquirery comes back to a "1976 Jeep" can you imagine what going to go through police officers head... Stolen Plates!!!!!!

You didn't think we would catch its a VW body on a 4WD chassis did you...

Dale

Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:02 am

Dale M. wrote:

In Calif it would be legally a VOLKSWAGEN SEDAN becasue it has a recognizable VW Beetle Body, although "running gear" appears to be from 4WD pickup or jeep (front engine, 4 wheel drive) ... Only requirement for running gear is engine is smog legal for year of registration and has good brakes..

Can you imaging the response if its stolen and local and state police radio says be on look out for "85 Toyota Pickup" or if you are stopped and response to registration enquirery comes back to a "1976 Jeep" can you imagine what going to go through police officers head... Stolen Plates!!!!!!

You didn't think we would catch its a VW body on a 4WD chassis did you...

Dale

My point exactly Dale.
It wouldn't be registered as a Jeep, it would be registered as a Beetle.
Even though everything but the body is a jeep, you wouldn't be able to stamp the Jeep vin on the frame and register it as a Jeep.

Same principle as the sandrail being registered as a beetle.
Or even a fiberglass buggy.

I'm aware that it was once legal but in most cases it's not anymore.

Now from my understanding, there is a way do use the old vin and tittle from the Beetle to help you obtain a vin and tittle to the sandrail once it is ready for inspection, although you would still have to install everything needed in a special construction build to pass.
Atleast in my state, it's written to make it seem that way.

Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:16 am

Just like the whole stinger/no bumper blocking the licence plate deal.
Simple as this, if ya wanna fuck with the bull, ya might get the horns.
Shit, I feel fortunate that I can still have a baja on the streets of Cali, the same way I did in the 80's. Driving joes massager down the street with a vin on it, screws everyone else.
Just like the prick who drops his bike in the garage and calls the insurance company for new plastics.

Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:03 pm

NC is REALLY lax on sandrail & dune buggies, if you've got the title & matching vin plate you're good to go (that 75 is grandfathered so no inspection either). Just make sure your title is from NC, if it's coming from out of state then it's treated as an antique vehicle & then you get to take the vehicle to the license & theft division for a full cavity search (you & the car). If it's a NC title, transfer into your name, cut the torsion housing wherever you want & weld the vin # to the chassis in the most obvious place so the officer can easily see it if you get pulled. ( one of my buddies welded his to the tube over his head just above the windshield.) It's a MUCH easier route than trying to get a special construction vin#.

Thu Jul 23, 2015 5:10 pm

TDCTDI wrote: NC is REALLY lax on sandrail & dune buggies, if you've got the title & matching vin plate you're good to go (that 75 is grandfathered so no inspection either). Just make sure your title is from NC, if it's coming from out of state then it's treated as an antique vehicle & then you get to take the vehicle to the license & theft division for a full cavity search (you & the car). If it's a NC title, transfer into your name, cut the torsion housing wherever you want & weld the vin # to the chassis in the most obvious place so the officer can easily see it if you get pulled. ( one of my buddies welded his to the tube over his head just above the windshield.) It's a MUCH easier route than trying to get a special construction vin#.

Only one little catch here, its illegal to cut and weld (change VIN numbers location) unless you have state licencing bureau approval.........

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/511

Dale

Thu Jul 23, 2015 5:43 pm

Dale M. wrote: TDCTDI wrote: NC is REALLY lax on sandrail & dune buggies, if you've got the title & matching vin plate you're good to go (that 75 is grandfathered so no inspection either). Just make sure your title is from NC, if it's coming from out of state then it's treated as an antique vehicle & then you get to take the vehicle to the license & theft division for a full cavity search (you & the car). If it's a NC title, transfer into your name, cut the torsion housing wherever you want & weld the vin # to the chassis in the most obvious place so the officer can easily see it if you get pulled. ( one of my buddies welded his to the tube over his head just above the windshield.) It's a MUCH easier route than trying to get a special construction vin#.

Only one little catch here, its illegal to cut and weld (change VIN numbers location) unless you have state licencing bureau approval.........

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/511

Dale

very good point but a lot here do not care if it is legal just that people are getting away with it so what if they chance having their vehicle seized and also possible face other legal issues if others get away with it why can't they is their thinking

Thu Jul 23, 2015 6:43 pm

I understand you thoughts "if others do it", but it does not make correct, and are you willing to lose your personal toys because others got away with it...

Dale

Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:10 pm

Ok, this will really get your goat, we can also swap diesels into gasoline cars (although we have to go through the license & theft div) they pop the hood, verify that it's a diesel & change the fuel designation on the title. I took the titles of both the donor vehicle & the recipient vehicle & they didn't even look at them, the only problem I had was trying to convince the officer that the engine was diesel.

Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:42 pm

You'll find out just how 'legal' it is when you get into a wreck. Your insurance company will take one look and dump your ass. You'll be lucky if that's all they do. Ever heard the term 'INSURANCE FRAUD'?

Lying to an insurance company is never a good idea. And as Dale pointed out, it will make it tougher for everyone else who wants to build one!

Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:13 pm

Hey Axitech, I'm not sure which you mean as fraudulent, I did go through the correct channels with my tdi swaps & even got to experience the insurance side of it when some jackass hit me head on in his mothers car while he was texting,their insurance company refused to pay for anything more than book value for the gasoline vehicle, fortunately my insurance company paid for my vehicle after I showed 20+ comparable vehicles. As to the sandrail/buggy dilemma, in my state, they are titled as the donor vehicle. I've gotten pulled in many sandrails & a couple buggies & as long as the registration matches the VIN all went well, one of which was out of state, most of the time I was pulled it seemed to be out of curiosity more than an actual infraction (probably the not looking like a bug thing).

Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:27 pm

Here's my 1966 beetle.