TheSamba.com :: View topic - Deglaze or Not-Deglaze engine cylinders...

Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:04 pm

Hi - I'm re-ringing the pistons on my EJ22 and wondering whether to deglaze the cylinders. Thing is my bores are awesome looking and have the cross hatching. The compression is great so I'm wondering if by deglazing if I'll mess it up.

The rings are chrome steel (Japanese OEM equiv NPR?). So I've read some hone and others don't. So wondering if I should pick up a hone or not.

Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:12 pm

Be defiant.
Don't touch them holes and see what happens.

The rings need a new place to call home---I'd at least make a couple of passes .

Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:12 pm

Do it

Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:38 pm

Depends.... Do you want to burn oil or not?

Don't deglaze, but buy your favorite oil company stock.

Seriously, the rough metal surface you make by deglazing is like sandpaper making the rings fit perfectly to the cylinder.

Dave

Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:41 pm

yes you can see cross-hatching in the bores - but what you can't see is all the highs on that cross-hatching has been 'bedded' to the old rings...

so yes you need a fresh cross-hatch to bed to the new rings

Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:46 pm

Ball hones aren't expensive anyway--

Bada-Boom, you're all done--

Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:33 pm

That's it - I'm going to hone them down. Any preferences on ball hone or standard tri-hone?

Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:55 pm

"Dingle Balls" we called them at the Mercedes Dealer I worked in during the early 1970's.

The Ball Hone was a new "Dumb Proof" tool for those who hadn't a clue on how to properly hone a cylinder.

Chuck in drill, squeeze trigger, done!

Your choice, they both work but the balls are more forgiving.

Dave

Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:08 pm

Ball hones are for whimps, imo. The trouble really is that you have to buy a specific ball hone for whatever size cylinders you're working on. Whereas a traditional hone will not only have the ability to hone cylinders of different sizes, but you can also change the stones depending on what you're doing.

There's lot of reading and probably a dozen youtube videos out there on honing, but basically... slow rpms and fast up and down.

-Kevin

Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:08 pm

Thanks for that. Havent had a good quote in my sig line in years :wink:

Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:36 pm

I'll pick up a tri-hone tomorrow. You're right there's enough info on Youtube to see how to use. Thanks for the help.

Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:38 pm

In case it wasn't clear from the other sarcastic responses, you must deglaze the cylinders any time you change the rings. If you do not, the rings will not seal and you will burn terrible amounts of oil.

Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:01 pm

If you don't have a noticeable groove in the cylinder walls right at the top of the travel for the upper compression ring, I would just use a ball hone and be done with the deglazing in seconds.

Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:31 pm

To Andrew and the others in favour of honing when re-ringing, there is actually a significant debate on these days on that point. (Granted, for a diesel, I would always go for honing). For the OP, the debate is moot because he has chrome rings he intends to install. With chrome rings, you have no choice at all except to hone as they will not other wise break in. With cast iron rings, however, they will actually break in quite nicely without a re-hone, provided the cylinder is not out of round and not significantly worn at the top of ring travel.

The ball hones will not straighten an out of round cylinder nor a cylinder with top end wear. The spring-loaded tri-hone will likewise not true a cylinder. Only something like a Sunnen CK10 or equivalent can true a slightly out-of-round bore, although even with the Sunnen, a significant bore problem calls for an overbore followed by honing.

It's very important not to use synthetic oil for the first couple oil changes after honing and re-ringing - - it prevents the rings from seating. It is also very important to get some heavy-load runs on the engine very soon after starting, including varying engine speed. Heavy load is the important part and you do not need to rev the engine high to achieve the ring seating. Heavy load presses the rings hard against the freshly-honed cylinder wall and the peaks on the honing cross-hatch then wear the rings to fit. If the load is not sufficient, the rings scrape over the peaks instead and gradually dull the peaks (like using a sharp chef's knife to cut cardboard - - it will cut the cardboard, but dull the blade). The dull peaks cannot wear in the ring material as effectively.

One other tip - - most DIY folks fail to properly clean out the honing grit after honing. It takes a long time with hot soap and water and re-washing a number of times to get the grit out. ATF can be used for a number of wipes after the soap and water washing.

I maintain my opinion that on Subaru engines, many engines that people feel need a re-ring job would, if they are not high mileage, do better with the factory rings and a regime of running Yamaha Ring Free to remove gum and sludge from the ring grooves and the rings. Remember that Subaru had a very sophisticated machining and honing process at the factory and it is very hard for a machine shop, let alone a DIY person, to match that process. Obviously, these considerations fall away when the donor engine has been brutalized and or poorly maintained.

I am not afraid to re-ring. We solid-honed (with a proper truing hone) and re-ringed constantly in air-cooled Italian kart engines and the Yamaha and Rotax kart engines. These engines had a lot more ring wear with only a single ring doing all the sealing, a bunch of ports, and 19,000 RPM on the straights. The Subie does not face those challenges.

Here's the thing for the OP that jumped out at me: You have "great compression". Why mess with that?

Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:34 pm

The reason?
Most folks here read way too much, and have zero practical experience.
Not to say that he isn't going to gain some of that on this job.
I prefer a straight bar hone myself, a good cross hatch is pretty easy to get with that sort of honing tool.
It's bit more precision than the ball hone.
Depends on how the cylinders look.
For just a quick cleaning up, a ball hone is fine.
Want to do some real straight digging--use the bar hone.

Tool of preference, that's all.
I use diesel fuel to wash down a freshly cleaned up cylinder.
Works quite well--

Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:30 am

4 yrs & as the 'lube' when honing cyls i find plain old kerosene works as good or better than anything to date, squirt it on as u hone, never satisfied with the bottle type, as usual no warranty offered at this time.

Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:02 am

Great feedback. I do have great compression but figured while I have the engine a part I may as well re-ring in fear of burning oil. The cylinders look great actually. Also cross hatching is very present.

Now I'm wondering if I should just clean the rings and put back in? Since Subaru may have complicated honing process. Otherwise I'd simply get a tri-hone and re-ring.

I'm still leaning on the latter option. Btw tri-hone is the only one I can get around here.

Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:33 am

If you have great compression and are not burning oil then why rering?

Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:35 am

Reason why is since the motor is taken apart I figured to take the opportunity now vs. later when it's back in the van.

Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:39 am

How many miles on it? My personal philosophy is not to mess with something that is working well unless it is at the end of its service life and 'I am in there anyway'.... :D