TheSamba.com :: View topic - Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76-79 Buses & 80-82 Vanagons CAT

Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:15 pm

Magnaflow is going to need some 1975 - 1979 smog legal T4 engine buses in Rancho Santa Margarita (near Mission Viejo) Orange County sometime soon as they have put together an engineering team this morning to deal with the catalytic converter (or lack thereof issue). We need 75 - 78 stock, 79 Federal and 79 California stock buses, and hopefully some Vanagons of 1980 - 1982 air cooled. Please start putting the feelers out folks. PM me if you want to make yourself available for this - I do not have a date(s) yet. Stock heater boxes and exhausts only for now. We can't cover every possible alteration if yours is modified. We don't yet know if they will need just to see a couple and take measurements, or actually dry fit some cat back exhausts.

If you have a smog cert coming up in the next year or so, this may be an opportunity to have a system available if you need one then. If we fail to address this issue that keeps repeating now since 2009 when the new CARB II law went into effect, there will come a time when we can no longer license these buses in California. PM me and I will start a list of possible candidates. If you know some air cooled stock exhaust vanagons, please point them to this thread. Thank You .

note: they could pull the plug on this and delist their universal VW Transporter/Westy cats, but if they do, that is Ok too because right now if you are told you need a converter, CARB will tell you to stuff an 18" long converter into a 12" spot. October 2015 - Steve

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Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:26 am

FYI: Santa Margarita is a wide spot in the road just north of San Luis Obispo, so that can't be the right name... Nowhere near Orange County...

Update: you must mean Rancho Santa Margarita - that's just east of Mission Viejo.

Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:42 am

From the Magnaflow website:

Address
22961 Arroyo Vista
Rancho Santa Margarita
CA 92688
USA

Phone
1.800.990.0905

1.949.858.5900

available 7am-5pm PST

Fax
1.949.858.3600

https://www.magnaflow.com/support/contact-us/

949 area code tells me OC... used to be all 714 back in the day.

:wink: Hope people can make headway on this.

Wed Oct 14, 2015 10:01 pm

Steve, zoobum has a 1979 with a cat and stock exhaust and he's somewhere in the Los Angeles area. I believe he'll be heading down my way sometime soon so we can discuss his FI conversion. You might contact Zach via PM

Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:07 am

I am waiting for a date and plan from them. Once we have that we can decide what they need, but I do need 1979 buses with stock exhaust. A 1976-1978 would be nice too then I don't have to drive all the way down from Sacramento.

There are several directions they can go with this including building an offset converter like the originals, or a whole cat back system, or they can delist their universal 18" ones and then ARB will stop telling us they can't waiver because an 18" one will fit in a 12" spot.

Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:42 pm

SGKent wrote: I am waiting for a date and plan from them. Once we have that we can decide what they need, but I do need 1979 buses with stock exhaust.
Should maybe get specific here and ask: A '79 California-spec bus or a Federal-spec bus, or both? It would be worthwhile making sure Magnaflow knows there is a difference...

Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:20 pm

SlowLane wrote: SGKent wrote: I am waiting for a date and plan from them. Once we have that we can decide what they need, but I do need 1979 buses with stock exhaust.
Should maybe get specific here and ask: A '79 California-spec bus or a Federal-spec bus, or both? It would be worthwhile making sure Magnaflow knows there is a difference...

From earlier posts, they would need to see both.

Really, if they can just make a short bodied CAT for the 76/77/78 bays, it should work also for the 79's.

I (am fairly certain I still) have an OEM 79CA specific CAT in the garage right now. It's hollowed out, but the dimensions are still correct.

Fri Oct 16, 2015 5:51 am

airkooledchris wrote: SlowLane wrote: SGKent wrote: I am waiting for a date and plan from them. Once we have that we can decide what they need, but I do need 1979 buses with stock exhaust.
Should maybe get specific here and ask: A '79 California-spec bus or a Federal-spec bus, or both? It would be worthwhile making sure Magnaflow knows there is a difference...

From earlier posts, they would need to see both.

Really, if they can just make a short bodied CAT for the 76/77/78 bays, it should work also for the 79's.

I (am fairly certain I still) have an OEM 79CA specific CAT in the garage right now. It's hollowed out, but the dimensions are still correct.

Not being familiar with the ARBs (nor envious) out there, why are they having to reinvent the wheel with a new CAT?

if reading through the various threads about this stuff, what came stock was legal, and still is, but is no longer available....

Then why aren't they building a new cat off the specs of the original? Why the redesign?

And why not give them an old one for reference? Is it as simple as a manufacturing cost for a non standard shape... and ultimately whatever certifications go with that?

Eagerly watching from a non-smoggy East state

Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:04 am

aerosurfer wrote: airkooledchris wrote: SlowLane wrote: SGKent wrote: I am waiting for a date and plan from them. Once we have that we can decide what they need, but I do need 1979 buses with stock exhaust.
Should maybe get specific here and ask: A '79 California-spec bus or a Federal-spec bus, or both? It would be worthwhile making sure Magnaflow knows there is a difference...

From earlier posts, they would need to see both.

Really, if they can just make a short bodied CAT for the 76/77/78 bays, it should work also for the 79's.

I (am fairly certain I still) have an OEM 79CA specific CAT in the garage right now. It's hollowed out, but the dimensions are still correct.

Not being familiar with the ARBs (nor envious) out there, why are they having to reinvent the wheel with a new CAT?

if reading through the various threads about this stuff, what came stock was legal, and still is, but is no longer available....

Then why aren't they building a new cat off the specs of the original? Why the redesign?

And why not give them an old one for reference? Is it as simple as a manufacturing cost for a non standard shape... and ultimately whatever certifications go with that?

Eagerly watching from a non-smoggy East state

In 2009 California and New York passed laws to prevent cheap and used cats from being sold. Each model sold has to be approved by the state. Because the bus is considered a derivative of a truck, (sports van), it has to have a truck approved cat. There are well made good quality 48 state versions that will fit by they are not legal to sell in California or New York. Nothing that is certified for the bus fits. There are not enough buses to sell these to in CA and NY that will justify the expense of making a new model cat that fits. Magnaflow lists 4 models that fit. They are 18" long and they actually don't fit a 12" opening. Either they need to make them fit, or remove them from the approved list. That way the state can issue waivers on people whose buses need a cat. Unfortunately getting a cat approved requires a specific test that costs too much for the out of state manufacturers to be interested. The whole thing is a huge mess.

Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:10 am

What makes a CAT a Truck specific one versis a passenger car CAT? Is there anything to it other than the manufacturer specifying it as such?

Or is there a state mandated type of manufacturing difference between the two?

Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:36 am

Oh man, Magnaflow is a great company! I used their exhaust on my MKIV R32, and their prices are great!

I wish I was closer, I have a completely stock '79 CA, but I am in Chicago.

Let me know if I can be of any assistance.

Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:46 am

airkooledchris wrote: What makes a CAT a Truck specific one versis a passenger car CAT? Is there anything to it other than the manufacturer specifying it as such?

Or is there a state mandated type of manufacturing difference between the two?

how it is tested. The test process is defined by code. If you have a cat model and you say it fits a light truck then it has to be tested for a light truck and you have to pay for the lab tests and certification, plus whatever the state charges for paperwork. If you then want to sell it also on car engines that it also fits then you would have to retest it as a passenger car cat even if the gross weight and engines are the same.

Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:46 am

airkooledchris wrote: What makes a CAT a Truck specific one versis a passenger car CAT? Is there anything to it other than the manufacturer specifying it as such?

Having recently gone through the process, here's my take on it, which may involve some wild-ass speculation. (but what would TheSamba be without wild speculation? :wink:)

Used to be that catalytic converters were specified based on things like engine displacement and GVRW. Things that would actually have an impact on the amount of bad stuff going out the tailpipe. But then somebody at CARB decided that it was taking up too many resources keeping track of all the variations in vehicles since the beginning of time, which in their case was 1975, thanks to Governor Arnie.

So they decided to simplify things by throwing all pre-OBD vehicles (ie. before 1995 or 1996) into one of four buckets: passenger cars or trucks, with either one or two catalytic converters. These classes are named PC-1, PC-2, T-1 and T-2. Didn't matter if your truck had a dinky 1.8 liter engine or a massive 4.7 liter engine: if it had one cat, then it was a T-1. Also didn't matter if your vehicle came with a two-way cat or a three-way: everything pre-OBD was painted with the same brush.

That made it easier for the the cat manufacturers to provide converters for the older cars. All they needed to do was pass a test on one of the representative vehicles chosen by CARB for a given class, and that cat model would be permitted on all vehicles in that class. The document which shows the various acceptable cats, and which the smog referees reference, is here: http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermktcat/exemptcatpreobdii.pdf. Any of the cats labelled T-1 on that list should be acceptable to the referees, but the list can get out-of-date, so it's worth checking the status of the actual Executive Order for the cat you are considering, because they do get rescinded.

Now, as part of this simplification mind-set, I imagine that the folks who make these decisions aren't going to be swayed by arguments about the chicken-tax and station wagons. They will look at our vehicles and say "it's a truck, it's obviously a truck, just look at it." And I think they would have a point, even if it's only the one on their head. Our vans (or busses, if you're stuck on that) are trucks, by any reasonable definition. It's quite a stretch to argue that it's a "car".

Steve, I responded to your call on Colin's IAC site. I have an Emico cat which is a perfect fit for the stock Federal aircooled Vanagon that I am willing to lend to Magnaflow so they can take measurements. My cat is actually the one Emico designed for the 1979 CA-spec beetle, and it was CARB-compliant, at least until the E.O. for it got rescinded. I rather suspect it will also fit all '75-'78 and Federal '79 busses.

Good luck with Magnaflow
Lyle

Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:24 am

SlowLane wrote: airkooledchris wrote: What makes a CAT a Truck specific one versis a passenger car CAT? Is there anything to it other than the manufacturer specifying it as such?

Having recently gone through the process, here's my take on it, which may involve some wild speculation.

Used to be that catalytic converters were specified based on things like engine displacement and GVRW. Things that would actually have an impact on the amount of bad stuff going out the tailpipe. But then somebody at CARB decided that it was taking up too many resources keeping track of all the variations in vehicles since the beginning of time, which in their case was 1975, thanks to Governor Arnie.

So they decided to simplify things by throwing all pre-OBD vehicles (ie. before 1995 or 1996) into one of four buckets: passenger cars or trucks, with either one or two catalytic converters. These classes are named PC-1, PC-2, T-1 and T-2. Didn't matter if your truck had a dinky 1.8 liter engine or a massive 4.7 liter engine: if it had one cat, then it was a T-1. Also didn't matter if your vehicle came with a two-way cat or a three-way: everything pre-OBD was painted with the same brush.

That made it easier for the the cat manufacturers to provide converters for the older cars. All they needed to do was pass a test on one of the representative vehicles chosen by CARB for a given class, and that cat model would be permitted on all vehicles in that class. The document which shows the various acceptable cats, and which the smog referees reference, is here: http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermktcat/exemptcatpreobdii.pdf. Any of the cats labelled T-1 on that list should be acceptable to the referees, but the list can get out-of-date, so it's worth checking the status of the actual Executive Order for the cat you are considering, because they do get rescinded.

Now, as part of this simplification mind-set, I imagine that the folks who make these decisions aren't going to be swayed by arguments about the chicken-tax and station wagons. They will look at our vehicles and say "it's a truck, it's obviously a truck, just look at it." And I think they would have a point, even if it's only the one on their head. Our vans (or busses, if you're stuck on that) are trucks, by any reasonable definition. It's quite a stretch to argue that it's a "car".

Steve, I responded to your call on Colin's IAC site. I have an Emico cat which is a perfect fit for the stock Federal aircooled Vanagon which I am willing to lend to Magnaflow so they can take measurements. My cat is actually the one Emico designed for the 1979 CA-spec beetle, and it was CARB-compliant, at least until the E.O. for it got rescinded. I rather suspect it will also fit all '75-'78 and Federal '7.9 busses.

Good luck with Magnaflow
Lyle

Hi Lyle - glad to hear from you. The issue is that the law was changed in 2009. I THINK that what we are seeing is the effect of the ARB IT department finishing their database project for cats. It is now searchable by make, model and year. When I did mine in January 2015 the program the Smog test used connected to BAR which tells the technician what to do. At one point he had to put in the EO number. That passed. I think that the reason yours failed was that by the time you did yours the database was complete so the smog program can also compare the make, model and year to the database. I fully expect that when I go back in January of 2017 the program will flunk me too even though I passed this time. The only ace up the sleeve I have is that the 2004 made converter that came with the bus is still good, and since the one on it is the wrong EO the old one has to go back on - oh well. I set it aside in case anything like this happened. I have also written my senator several times hoping the 2009 law gets repealed or amended. One issue against that is the legislature has rules like each senator or assemblyperson can only submit so many bills during the legislative year. If they have more pressing issues it gets set aside. The more people who write their State Senators and Assemblyperson saying how they tried to buy a cat to fix a bad one, and were told they had to stuff an 18" cat into a 12" spot because the law has no exceptions, the greater the chance someone will submit a bill that changes the 2009 law.

The irony in this is that the MAIN purpose of the 2009 law was to stop people from being forced to replace good cats as part of passing smog, and to stop companies from selling subpar cats. So in our cases instead of some shyster telling us our cats won't work so we need to spend $$$ to buy a new one, the shyster has become the State. We've traded a small villain we could challenge in small claims court for one it would take very deep pockets to challenge. How did that old Ronald Reagan saying go, "I'm here from the government to help.......... ." I spent a day with him as an aide back in 1967 at Boy's State, and was a pen pal since High School days until he got dementia. I do miss him because it would have been very easy to deal with this if he was still around. We've met Jerry, Cathy has talked with him several times, but we have never gotten any response from him when we have written asking for assistance with this.

Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:10 am

SGKent wrote:

Hi Lyle - glad to hear from you. I think that the reason yours failed was that by the time you did yours the database was complete so the smog program can also compare the make, model and year to the database.
Yeah, thought I'd stop lurking and pitch in my $.02.

The reason that my Emico cat failed. as explicitly expressed by the smog referee, was because it was designated a PC-1 cat, not a T-1 cat. The fact that the E.O for the Emico cat had been rescinded was irrelevant at that point.

He then handed me a copy of the acceptable pre-OBD cat list that I linked to in my previous post and said that any of the T-1 cats on that list would do, but to check the specific E.O to make sure it was still valid, since the list was quite old. I note that the list is now current.

At that point I was still under the delusion that at least one of the cat manufacturers would have an exact fit for my van. After all, if Emico could do it, why couldn't they? The Magnaflow 339916 that I ended up with, despite being touted as a "Direct Fit", turned out to be far from the case, as we've discussed previously, and I ended up having a local muffler shop adapt it to my exhaust.

When I brought it back to the referee, he was perfectly happy with passing it, since it had the correct E.O. stamped on it. I wasn't about to point out that it had, through physical necessity, moved more than 3" from the "original" cat location.

Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:23 pm

i thought all 75 busses were smog exempt

Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:02 am

ggaeta wrote: i thought all 75 busses were smog exempt

They are, so did you see something that says they need to be smogged?

Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:53 am

Wasted youth wrote: ggaeta wrote: i thought all 75 busses were smog exempt

They are, so did you see something that says they need to be smogged?

Right… There were almost 100,000 VW buses imported into the USA from '76-'79… :P

Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:49 pm

I have asked all my non-Samba bus owner friends, and all of the T4 folks I work with have registered their buses elsewhere and gone to an early muffler-only style setup. I am still looking around, and maybe I'll hit up the local club, even though I haven't seen any late bays there.

The Pomona Swap Meet is every other month now, and it is a HUGE gathering of buses. Can we make a flyer or postcard to hand out at these shows asking for volunteers with stock setups? I'd be happy to help, but I'm at a loss of what else I can do.

Robbie

Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:07 pm

Shoot, I wanna see how "close" mine would be to passing smog