TheSamba.com :: View topic - 200hp-300hp Turbo Waterboxer is the US ready?

Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:55 pm

Maybe some of you already know of me and some of you dont but Ive now settled in the US and was thinking of building waterboxers again, ive been building them for over 20 years, this wont be my full time job but maybe theres a market for the turbo waterboxer? there are already some great builders of N/A waterboxers in the US like Gowesty, Rocky Jennings, Vanistan just to name a few but no one turbocharges the waterboxer, N/A is fine if you want a max of 160hp reliably but above that the engines architecture and head constraints really warrant turbocharging. Stock to full race 800hp is possible.
Thanks
Marco Mansi

Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:02 pm

I'm ready.
Bring it.

Do you have some ideas to help the transmissions handle that amount of power and torque?

Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:04 pm

Welcome to the US! Whereabouts did you settle?

I have followed your WBX doings for a long time now. You do some incredible work and obviously make some serious HP out of the WBX platform. I love the dyno video of the gray Beetle that needed slicks just to maintain traction. Awesome!

Sun Nov 22, 2015 7:53 pm

Complete with engine management system?

Sun Nov 22, 2015 8:00 pm

I'm saving my laundry money for one of these:

http://jalopnik.com/porsches-flat-four-engines-could-go-tiny-as-1-6-liters-1584705655

Sun Nov 22, 2015 8:05 pm

interesting - I just finished reading about a 440 hp 4.0L flat six - air cooled & N/A

Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:19 pm

Well, Marco, I hope you build that turbo WBX. I have a personal reason for hoping this. Among other problems I daydream about solving, the way to efficiently plumb the primary exhaust pipes to the turbo collector on a WBX has me stumped. All the configurations in my head require relocating the alternator and running without a distributor. The distributor drive shaft would simply drive a cam position sensor.

My idea of a turbo WBX is not intended to be a racing application or even a performance version, but just a better mousetrap for the Vanagon/Westfalia. The idea is a torquey engine that will climb hills at reasonable speeds (inspired by VAG engines like the 1.8T and Audi AAN). I also would want stock WBX reliability. I would be looking for about 170 to 180 ft/lb of torque from 2,000 rpm up to 4,500 rpm with digital boost control to make a flat torque curve and a J&S Safeguard knock control system. My thought is that this setup would benefit from a slight re-gearing by way of oversize tires.

The attractions of a turbo WBX include:
- no engine adaptor, no adaptor oil pan, no cooling system mods needed;
- minor harness mods instead of major;
- valve jobs cheaper than 1.8T (8 valves vs. 20)
- lots of cheap cores available.

Issues to Solve:

- ideal primary exhaust plumbing;
- piston oil squirter installation;
- better oil pump;
- forged piston crown design?;
- are Inconel exhaust valves needed?
- use stock intake system or modify for space considerations?

Overall, my goal would be to use every WBX part (instead of fabricating or "borrowing" from another vehicle) that can be used which will not impair the torque and reliability goals. By this, I mean, I would like to NOT use piston oil squirters if the design can do without them, NOT use a bespoke intake manifold if the design can do without, etc etc. The reason for this should be obvious - - to keep cost reasonable.

With enough Inconel, titanium, custom aluminum and bespoke billet parts, any technical problem can be overcome - - except cost.

Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:44 am

Living at 7,000 ft. elevation, I'm interested. 300 h.p. sounds about right. Would the manual or auto trans stand up to the power would be the next question.

Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:30 am

Hopefully we can have more information added to this post.
I am interested in the more modest 200HP version and have an excellent low mileage MV core from one of my Syncro Westys that I would have you build.

Of course, the details, pricing, time line and any sort of warranty information would need to be discussed, but I like the sounds of what you are doing and think that more would be built, once we see how it performs.

I have access to a chassis dyno and would be installing this engine, at my personal and now private shop.

Please let me know, here or pmail.

Thank you.

Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:51 am

Promising for sure but yes, the tranny would have to be addressed among a few other things.

I assessed a dubious 240 hp (and proper torque increments) would be ideal to power a fully loaded westy syncro to match modern levels of power to weight ratio so anywhere between 200-300 would be great. Doesn't the SVX get about 235 ?

Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:36 am

Yes, the EG33 is roughly 230HP, with more gained easily.

Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:40 am

I'd think torque would be more important than h.p. I've run a few 911 motors in my '68 d/c. The 2.4 w/160 h.p. was fine, but not enough torque. The 3.2 had good torque. The '68 weighed around 2800 lbs with the 3.2. My '86 doka is at approximately 3600 lbs, stock.

Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:14 am

I maintain a Porsche 3.2 powered Syncro.
It is awesome.
Not many here would care for the maintenance and preventative maintenance bills associated with that engine conversion.

Yes torque kills.

Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:12 pm

Christopher Schimke wrote: Welcome to the US! Whereabouts did you settle?

I have followed your WBX doings for a long time now. You do some incredible work and obviously make some serious HP out of the WBX platform. I love the dyno video of the gray Beetle that needed slicks just to maintain traction. Awesome!

Thanks for your kind words! Ive settle on the east coast, Baltimore.

Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:17 pm

240Gordy wrote: Complete with engine management system?

Yes without a doubt, full control of fuel and spark with Knock control, a possibility of dash screen to monitor all engine parameters.

Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:19 pm

Cool.
What price point are you trying to hit?
Will this be a core exchange program type of thing or a kit?
-d

Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:22 pm

Merian wrote: interesting - I just finished reading about a 440 hp 4.0L flat six - air cooled & N/A
Interesting, who built it? I resonantly finished a 650rwhp 3.6L 👍🏼

Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:36 pm

Howesight wrote: Well, Marco, I hope you build that turbo WBX. I have a personal reason for hoping this. Among other problems I daydream about solving, the way to efficiently plumb the primary exhaust pipes to the turbo collector on a WBX has me stumped. All the configurations in my head require relocating the alternator and running without a distributor. The distributor drive shaft would simply drive a cam position sensor.

My idea of a turbo WBX is not intended to be a racing application or even a performance version, but just a better mousetrap for the Vanagon/Westfalia. The idea is a torquey engine that will climb hills at reasonable speeds (inspired by VAG engines like the 1.8T and Audi AAN). I also would want stock WBX reliability. I would be looking for about 170 to 180 ft/lb of torque from 2,000 rpm up to 4,500 rpm with digital boost control to make a flat torque curve and a J&S Safeguard knock control system. My thought is that this setup would benefit from a slight re-gearing by way of oversize tires.

The attractions of a turbo WBX include:
- no engine adaptor, no adaptor oil pan, no cooling system mods needed;
- minor harness mods instead of major;
- valve jobs cheaper than 1.8T (8 valves vs. 20)
- lots of cheap cores available.

Issues to Solve:

- ideal primary exhaust plumbing;
- piston oil squirter installation;
- better oil pump;
- forged piston crown design?;
- are Inconel exhaust valves needed?
- use stock intake system or modify for space considerations?

Overall, my goal would be to use every WBX part (instead of fabricating or "borrowing" from another vehicle) that can be used which will not impair the torque and reliability goals. By this, I mean, I would like to NOT use piston oil squirters if the design can do without them, NOT use a bespoke intake manifold if the design can do without, etc etc. The reason for this should be obvious - - to keep cost reasonable.

With enough Inconel, titanium, custom aluminum and bespoke billet parts, any technical problem can be overcome - - except cost.

My 225hp 250ftlb 2.1L is exactly what your looking for , its temperament is the same as a stock 2.1mv, a stock type cam and lifters are used, just with added boost, the most important thing is to keep oil temps under control, engine and gearbox need additional coolers to sustain 80mph+ on the highway pushing 4000lb+ Vehicle with longer gearing.

Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:39 pm

Hi, no transmission will easily handle more then 200 hp, who says so, the (RIP) guru Daryl from AA.

I have installed 2 Subi Turbo in my career and no transmission did hold, 1 auto and 1 4 speed.

I'm sorry I don't know you, can we see some of your work? That would be interesting and nice!!!

How about a mild one! Around 160 hp or so (even 140)? We all know that Turbo engine eat gas 3 time a day. Most owner have camper and some with kids and have no need for 300 hp.

How about a 120hp without Turbo?

and what about the cost of a 200 hp turbo engine? What part would you use?

Cheers, Ben

Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:48 pm

gumbajv wrote: Living at 7,000 ft. elevation, I'm interested. 300 h.p. sounds about right. Would the manual or auto trans stand up to the power would be the next question.

A real 300hp 300ftlb motor in a vanagon is rapid , both the manual and auto trans can be made to withstand the hp, axels are next on the list to brake if abused.