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Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:19 am

Does anyone know where i can source a pair of 2" lift balljoint spindles? I need a speedo cable hole. Also dont need anything stronger than stock. All i seem to be finding is the 3" ones or 2" lowered.

Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:22 am

If you find EMPI lift spindles, steer clear.

Tweeds makes some still. Probably have to request them to be drilled for speedo cable. Else, you can flip your lower arms and use stock Thing spindles.

Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:15 am

I may just build some. I think the tweeds are overpriced. I dont guess i can afford thing ones at the moment, but may can if i luck intosome.
I may check some threads on building some.

Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:53 am

SamT wrote: I may just build some. I think the tweeds are overpriced. I dont guess i can afford thing ones at the moment, but may can if i luck intosome.
I may check some threads on building some.

The VW 181 Spindles are 3" not 2"

If you think Tweed are over priced then I look forward to seeing what you make and what you think they are worth after you make them.

Tweeds are $285 a pair so take out material and you are under $200 a pair in labour. Mot sure what your time is worth but I will be interested to see how long it takes you and what your quality looks like.

I only say this as you are the 1st person I have ever seen say Tweed stuff is overpriced. I have a fabrication shop and I wouldn't even bother trying at the price he does stuff.

If you are looking at cheap stuff then have a look at Blind Chicken Racing, Crash was doing them for some stupid amount a while back maybe he still is.

Oops looks like he is close to Tweed now but you need a core - http://www.blindchickenracing.com/Products/Front%20Suspension/Spindles/spindles_and_bearings.htm

Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:54 am

He still has his how to on doing it if you decide to do you own thing

http://www.blindchickenracing.com/How_to/Lifted_Spindles/Raisedspindles.htm

Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:41 pm

Iguana wrote: He still has his how to on doing it if you decide to do you own thing

http://www.blindchickenracing.com/How_to/Lifted_Spindles/Raisedspindles.htm

That is exactly what i had in mind, thanks for the link. I spent an hour rocking a crying baby thinking up exactly that design! I think i can do the blind chicken ones in 3-4 hours, less if Im lucky.

no offense towards tweeds, Im sure their product is great, but I'm simply not interested at that price. I do have lots of junk laying around though, excellent fab skils, and more time than money.

Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:00 am

Has anyone ever tried adding some width to the spindle itself?
Like cut it just like blind chicken, but dont butt it up flush. Say add 1" of extra width by boxing it back together. That way you get 1/2" or sowider by design and another inch by the boxing.

After I cut mine i may play with it, i could even add a spacer in the middle to weld to so it has a center mount and the boxing. I dont see any effects on geometry, but can see where it may add some stress to the ball joints.

I was thinking about cutting the beam, i have the stuff to do it, but i dont know that I want it 4" wider. I have 6" front wheels with 2" backspace and 3" would get my front and rear wheels sitting even. I dont know if i can widen the beam just 2".

Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:40 pm

There is a guy in Ogden Utah that can make a set. I believe his handle on here is doug41 or something like that. I have had mine for 6 years without issues. They are very well built.

Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:51 am

Unless you are dead set for 2", get a pair of Thing spindles and call it a day.

There are a few sellers here (some parting out their Thing) that can be had way less then aftermarket and you know it has VW quality. No need to drill for the speedo cable either. If you ever opt for front disc brakes, there is a adapter for it to.

Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:19 pm

Brian wrote: Else, you can flip your lower arms and use stock Thing spindles.

You do not want to flip the lower arms. The arms are bent slightly at the ends where the ball joints press in. If you flip them (right to left and upside down) you will increase the angle on the ball joints and decrease the available travel before they bind up. You need to leave the arms where they are and just install the ball joints upside down. The upper and lower ball joints need to be replaced anyway because the Thing studs are larger diameter. Beetle ball joints won't get tight in the larger tapers of the Thing spindles. You could use the Beetle uppers if you also use the Beetle adjuster cams, but the lowers need to be Thing.

The Thing spindles also increase the width by 1.5" per side, so if extra width is desired it makes them even more attractive.

Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:27 pm

Really? I flipped the lower arms and used things ball jointd there and so far so good. Granted i have not gone slamming offroad. It seems to be a common suggestion here. Go figure.

Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:26 am

I've seen it repeated over and over again on this site, but that doesn't make it right. If you look at the arms closely, Thing or Beetle, the tail end is angled upward to reduce the angle of the joint. Flipping them puts the lower joint at an extreme angle and causes it to bind before the shock reaches full extension. That's not what you want for an off-road or lifted car, it eventually results in a bent or broken lower ball joint unless something else is put in place to limit the travel. It can work, but why would you want to limit suspension travel?

I said in my previous post to install the ball joints upside down, that's not really correct. The Thing joints are made so that they press in from the same side (bottom), but the stud points down instead of up (it's like the upper joint). The only modification required is to grind off the lip on the bottom of the arm so the joint can be pressed all the way in and sit against a flat surface. The Bug arms are actually thicker than Thing arms here, so removing the lip doesn't remove any needed strength.

Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:14 am

Quote: I've seen it repeated over and over again on this site, but that doesn't make it right.

a thing repeated on the internet by a person who never did it? say it ain't so!

Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:21 am

So back to the original question. I don't think it's possible to build a 2" lift spindle with speedometer cable hole. The hole would need to be right where the lower ball joint boss is. Even with a 3" lift they need to be set back about 1/2" to allow enough room for the cable to exit. At least that's what I found when attempting to build mine. I found a complete Thing front end before i finished, so I never actually got much further than the drawings. It seems like a waste of time to cut up two sets of spindles when you can buy new stubs for $30 and they are drilled for speedometer. Then all you need is two 1/2" steel plates to reposition the stubs wherever you want them. Adding extra width will increase scrub radius. How much is acceptable I don't know, but it will also depend on your tire diameter and wheel offset.

Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:36 pm

the way it works out for cutting and welding the spindles together at a 3" lift puts the speedo cable hole next to the lower balljoint giving you the ability to plug in your speedometer.

The way I am doing them now is to slice a single spindle through the backing and the reweld it using a 3/8" plate. I was going through too many spindles when I was making a lot of them.

Mark

Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:02 am

We have some info now. I didnt realize thing spindles added width, so that may be the direction I go. I guess that means scrub radius wont matter if I widen mine.

I think for now I will try my hand at making some (2" lift, 1" wider) and if I screw up I will look for thing spindles. That said, i was thinking about widening the beam, but the spindles will give me all I need so I'm going to add an adjuster to the top beam and call it good. I will set the adjuster where stock is mid adjustment so that gives me a good bit of adjustment either way. I want the car to sit level or slightly down in front im worried 3" spindles may put my front up. Front tires are 235-75r15 and rears are 35x12.5 (measure more like 34x12)

Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:41 am

When you add lift by lowering the spindle stub on the knuckle you are reducing scrub (or adding negative scrub). A larger diameter tire also reduces scrub. Higher positive wheel offset increases scrub, so does adding width to the knuckle. you really need to consider all of these factors when building a car, especially one with no power steering and limited fender clearance. Too large a scrub radius (positive or negative) affects steering and braking, and also causes the outside (or inside) edge of the tire to swing front to back rather than just pivot in and out.

I haven't modeled the complete VW front knuckle, but I suspect it has a relatively large amount of positive scrub in stock form. Again I don't know how much is acceptable on these cars, but I would certainly want to keep the steering axis point inside the contact patch of the tire, preferably nearest the center as possible. The extra width on the Thing spindles adds scrub to counteract the reduction in scrub caused by the lift. In the same way, a taller tire works to counteract the effects of a positive wheel offset.

Sun Dec 06, 2015 5:48 pm

rockcrawl wrote: When you add lift by lowering the spindle stub on the knuckle you are reducing scrub (or adding negative scrub). A larger diameter tire also reduces scrub. Higher positive wheel offset increases scrub, so does adding width to the knuckle. you really need to consider all of these factors when building a car, especially one with no power steering and limited fender clearance. Too large a scrub radius (positive or negative) affects steering and braking, and also causes the outside (or inside) edge of the tire to swing front to back rather than just pivot in and out.

I haven't modeled the complete VW front knuckle, but I suspect it has a relatively large amount of positive scrub in stock form. Again I don't know how much is acceptable on these cars, but I would certainly want to keep the steering axis point inside the contact patch of the tire, preferably nearest the center as possible. The extra width on the Thing spindles adds scrub to counteract the reduction in scrub caused by the lift. In the same way, a taller tire works to counteract the effects of a positive wheel offset.

My fiberglass buggy is so light up front that there wont be any issue with the steering being hard to turn, I have a 12" steering wheel and Ive used 8 and 10's on rails with no trouble. Being light makes the front brakes not much help either so thats not an issue.
It does need to handle pretty good though. I stuffed 2 caster shimms under the beam before i did the tube chassis so I added a good whack of caster, that tends to clean up alot of issues with these things driving good. My front wheels are 6 wide 2" backspace. 235 tire is pretty much 30"

Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:44 pm

The Beetle suspension was designed for a wheel with 1.5" negative offset. Your wheels have 1" positive offset. So the wheels alone will move the center of your contact patch out by 2.5". The VW only has about 4 degrees of steering axis angle, so a 30" tire and 3" lift spindle will only make up for about 1/2" of scrub radius, putting you at +2" over stock. I wouldn't recommend adding any width to the spindles if you plan to keep those wheels. You're already outside of what I'd be comfortable with, but my experience is with modern road cars, not off-roaders. I'm sure there are lots off buggies running around with horrible amounts of scrub.

To put this all into perspective, if you wanted to retain the stock scrub radius with those wheels you have and a 3" lift spindle, you'd need a 95" tall tire.

Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:11 pm

I dont think the scrub will matter, i drove a ministock (i thinlk thats what they called them) one time and it handled pretty darn good with some 8"maybe more front wheels and real fat tires all around.