TheSamba.com :: View topic - What year engines came with hand crank nut on lower pully?

Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:07 pm

Can anyone help me with some info on what years would have came with the hand crank pulley nut ? Im trying to identify an engine that has a weird block number / stamping, but also think its strange that it has a nut on the bottom pulley for the hand crank. But the car has no hole in the rear apron. Its clearly the wrong engine for the car its in...
Was this possible for 25hp and 36hp?
Did buses have this later than beetles??

Thanks!

Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:42 am

allot of industrial engines have crank start have you checked the number in the tech section that should give you a ruff idea or post the number here

Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:00 am

in 1970 I had a 54-6 original 1 owner oval and it had the hand crank nut with flap engine tin and the crank handle in the boot. I don't remember if it had a hole in the body.

Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:38 am

What is the Numbers?

Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:52 am

Post the numbers or photos of the strange numbers.

Yes, Buses used crank start nuts for all 36hp engines through mid-1959.

Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:00 pm

Here is a pic of the generator tower; the front number comes back as a 56' engine, but this motor is in an earlier car. I dont know what the strange number stamped on the side of the tower is or the word or lettering that runs vertically. I cant seem to make out what it says....
And of course not pictured is the lower crank pulley which has the hand crank nut on it.....

Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:44 pm

on front under the motor number it says vertical "Austausch" or Exchange.

Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:21 pm

ahh....well that would explain the later engine in the early car. So i guess the second number stamped on the side goes along with that theory then?

Thanks for the info.

Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:15 pm

I have seen some replaced engines where they stamped the original engine # on the side.

I can't read it - What's the original engine # on the side?

Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:04 am

As well as Industrial engines, Military spec Thing/Type 181s had hand cranks from the factory in the 70s.

Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:37 am

The industrial engines have a hole in the middle of the crank nut, if that helps identify things.

Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:29 pm

The number on the side is 221327 which would put it as an August of 50' engine. Which is not likely. BUT, this would make me wonder about the crank nut on the pulley though...
I will have to see if the nut has a hole in it like Everett posted. The motor in the car is partially disassembled but im pretty sure its not a 25hp. At least i don't think. Its just a long block, heads, crank pulley, etc. still together. Carb, shroud, intake, tin, and generator are off at this time. He swears its the original to the car. I will have to investigate the other parts that were taken off by the owner.
This is a car Im looking at getting, so Im only going off of photos I have and info from the owner.

So at this point it appears that the car had an exchanged engine. Why the early pulley nut, im not sure. maybe exchange engines are "generic" and have a hand crank pulley nut???

Sun Dec 27, 2015 12:51 pm

Based on VW's exchange engine (KD or KT) numbering sequencing, #221327 was rebuilt in early January 1958. I think I see the "K D" stamped above the vertical number on the side.

Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:05 pm

It does have the "KD" stamped above the 221327 number on the side of the tower. So that would make sense with the "exchange" info. Still a couple questions though:
1. So what would the front number be for? The stamp is strange in that it does not have the 1-0xxxxxxx only the seven digits. And its a 56' number and the car is earlier than that.
2. Did exchange engines typically have crank nuts on the pulleys?
3. The block also looks strange. Like its made of different metal and it looks "crude". It looks shiny like aluminum instead of a more "gray" color like my other 36hp engines.
4. Last, so what were exchange engines? Were these factory replacements that you could get or buy somewhere back in the day??

Thanks again for all the info.

Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:12 pm

2003nbc wrote: Based on VW's exchange engine (KD or KT) numbering sequencing, #221327 was rebuilt in early January 1958. I think I see the "K D" stamped above the vertical number on the side.

Hi, do you have a listing or reference for this I could add to the site?

Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:05 pm

My thoughts:
1. The "front" number is likely the original engine serial number as originally stamped by the VW factory. Or a number stamped by someone post-factory on a replacement (blank) case.

2. IDK, but may have been dependent upon the market the exchange engine was to be used for - industrial, stationary vs car.

3. The case looks to have been painted with silver paint to me - in my view the thin silver paint seems to highlight all the casting marks and makes them look bad, even worse when they get dirty.

4. Yes exchanges were used for factory replacements, see the following info and references, I'm not an expert and the following is based upon old literature research, some other Samba member's posts / submittals and my personal knowledge.

According to the “Vintage Voice” June 2001 volume 26 number 6 article titled “KD Engine Numbers”, Factory rebuilt engines or “Austauch” exchange engines received a sequential KD / KT number. Documents had been found that contained partial records. KD engine numbering sequence is available by month of production from January 1955 to January 1967. End of January 1955 was number 83449; end of January 1967 was 1698040. The detailed sequence is provided. The article continues with a comparison of original case numbers and KD numbers for 10 engines owned by the author.

The June 1960 edition of FOREIGN CAR GUIDE has an article about VW’s Kassel rebuilding works. It tells the history and details the engine rebuilding process with text and photos. The facility is described as a special factory for rebuilding everything from windshield wiper motors to engines and transmissions. The article states that VW's from the early 50' s are now in need of rebuilt engines. It states that the plant opened in June of 1958 and produced 88,000 engines in the first 13 months along with 26,300 transaxles. (the 88,000 is a close match to the 13 month sequence of serial numbers found in the VWCA article). It goes on to state that the daily average for engines was 430 along with 130 transaxles. The cost was $247 for rebuilt engines as compared to a new engine cost of $440; rebuilt transaxles were $219 and new were $299. It includes 9 photos of factory workers performing various tasks and one interesting photo of the ultra-rare 36 HP with the generator pedestal on the left (photo image reversed!).
The article says approximately the same number of used engines enter the plant each day as are produced each day, it goes on to say “ Rebuilts for export are packed in full crates with weatherproof wrappings. A block which started life in Wolfsburg and traveled to Australia may find itself starting life again in Arica, Sweden, or anywhere else.”
It details why purchasing an exchange can be more economical and timely as compared to a local rebuild.
---------------

Engines stamped with 'KD' numbers, are factory exchange engines, thus the second number.

KD engines were from VW in Germany.
KDA engines were from VW Australia.
KDS engines were from Sweden.

"The Factory always marks the case". The early exchange engines had a sequential number (second number) along with the symbol. In other words the earlier cases kept the original number and the KD number was stamped on the side with the exchange symbol. At some point an X was added to the end of each exchange number. And even later the original number was removed and the exchange symbol along with a letter code was stamped. The exchange symbol and the letter code or number would be in a "machined-out" area (not sure if this is true for any 36 h.p.) When they started using a letter code, they stopped using a sequential number. In some instances you could transfer the old engine number to the new engine if the exchange engine had the original engine number machined off or if the engine was assembled with a remanufactured/ new case.

To add a little confusion it was common practice for dealerships or independent VW / foreign car repair shops to stamp numbers or initials / date or code somewhere on an engine after performing an overhaul. In some instances the stamp was placed on the mating surface (in a non-sealing area) and could only be seen once the case was split (a mechanic I worked for in the late 70’s did his that way). As a side note in the late 70’s this repair shop also rebuilt long blocks for a local VW dealership but all those were 1600 cc’s. I also recall VW was very interested in obtaining a certain engine series for some reason (based upon alphabet prefix ie: AD, AK, AH but not sure which) and the dealership would buy them back for return to Wolfsburg.

Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:18 am

KDF was from Finland :D