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Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:36 am

A local member highly suggest I install a hard start relay but I don't think he realized that I have both an automatic and cruise control. What I've read so far indicates that there is not a hard start relay for my application. What if I keep the cruise control in non working order? LOL.

Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:55 am

Your van has an extra relay above the main fuse/relay panel. Pull that relay and then you can add a hard start relay.

Look at Bentley page 97.231
Find relay labeled J60
See next to it a dark black box with a number in it
That number is the relay 'location'
Look at page 97.201
That page shows location numbers on the fuse/relay panel

Hopefully the J60 relay is where it says it is. Never use the cruise again.
Make sure the diagram on the relay matches what the circuit diagram shows it should be.

Mark

EDIT: mistakenly wrote 97.261, now changed to 97.231

Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:05 am

So the J60 relay is for Auto cruise?

Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:24 am

Why can't you use a starter relay with an auto and cruise?

Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:36 am

Because of how the factory cruise setup was implemented by VW in auto trans vans.

Mark

Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:54 am

Hmmm...I'm having a hard time understanding how the starting, cruise and automatic systems interact, or why they'd be wired differently Guess I'll have to spend some time with my Bentley.

Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:11 am

I gave the page number to look at and relay number to look for on that page.

Mark

Zeitgeist 13 wrote: Hmmm...I'm having a hard time understanding how the starting, cruise and automatic systems interact, or why they'd be wired differently Guess I'll have to spend some time with my Bentley.

Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:43 am

My Bentley doesn't have a page 97.261 and there's no J60 relay on 97.201--weird. It's sort of an academic question anyway, but I'm still contemplating a manual to auto swap, so I just wanted to cover the unknowns. I hadn't heard of this issue before. I'll keep looking

Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:56 am

Sorry, wrote the wrong page number earlier.
Page 97.231 and look for J60 on it. This is for 90/91 automatic with cruise.

If you have an older manual look on 97.170 and 97.173 for the "auto trans relay" . These are for auto trans cruise wiring versions before 1990. (not labeled G60 on the earlier version diagrams)

Mark

Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:11 pm

Thanks, I just found it.

Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:44 pm

In vans with manual transmissions there is a switch mounted on the clutch pedal to tell the cruise control unit that you have pushed in the clutch. Without this the engine rpm could rapidly speed up to redline if you pushed in the clutch while under cruise control operation.

Auto trans has no clutch pedal but you could still shift into neutral or less likely into park while the cruise control was engaged. Again this could result in the engine rpm rapidly speeding up to redline. Instead of adding a separate switch to the auto shiftlever box VW figured out that they could use the existing starter lockout switch that the auto shiftlever box has. This switch only allows the starter to operate when the lever is in park or neutral. So in the auto version of the cruise there is an extra relay that uses this switch to detect when the shift lever is in neutral or park so the cruise control can turn off. This relay takes the place of the clutch pedal switch function that manual trans cruise uses.

I just wish VW had labeled the extra relay something that tells what it does, like "shifter position safety relay" or "neutral/park safety relay".

Next it where it all gets tricky..............

Mark

Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:03 pm

SOooooo I'll bypass the key-start wire directly to the starter and skip the lockout in the auto shifter.. really don't pull it into drive THEN hit the key anyways..
and sometimes (say if stalls in traffic) it's nice to just hit the key you know like a standard trans is allowed to do.

still seems it'd been cheaper/easier to have a new parking switch with a second set of pins than a relay and related wiring.

Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:27 pm

You don't need a relay at all.

Run the starter trigger wire to a starter button , run the other side to the feed side of the neutral safety switch.

Direct drive, no hassles figuring out what will work with the cruise, or the automatic set up.

Used this set up for years, It's easy & bullet proof, direct amps & voltage to the solenoid.

The only caveat is you have to make sure it's in park or neutral, which should be a no brainer.

Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:23 pm

Back to the OP's question, can't you just put a relay back by/on the starter? That's how we used to wire them up on the old Beetles

Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:34 pm

Jay Brown does the relay kits and his site says that it ain't that easy to slap a relay there.

https://sites.google.com/site/vanagonheadlightrelays/hard-start-relays/hard-start-relay

You can contact Jay for the whys. I'm not smart enough to help further... :D

Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:34 pm

No, you can't. Not if you have a factory cruise setup on a van that came with an automatic trans. That is the whole point.

Mark

Zeitgeist 13 wrote: Back to the OP's question, can't you just put a relay back by/on the starter? That's how we used to wire them up on the old Beetles

Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:46 pm

Zeitgeist 13 wrote: Back to the OP's question, can't you just put a relay back by/on the starter?...

As noted, the issue here is that the auto w/cruise doesn't play nice with a relay on the starter circuit.

But otherwise you are quite right - Jay's kit is a great convenience for those who cannot or do not know how to add a start relay - but the same thing can be accomplished with an off-the-shelf automotive relay for a couple of bucks. That's how I did mine years ago when there were no kits on offer.

Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:16 pm

Yes, many of us have put our own relays into many VWs over the years. Jay's kits are basically the same thing only built to a professional level. I have ton's of new relays and new wire but I still buy Jay's kits because he builds them better than I can myself.

The issue isn't that the added start relay won't start the car. The issue is that the VW auto tranny cruise system has a relay that puts a weak voltage into the starting circuit whenever the key is on and the shift lever is in park or neutral. This voltage is too weak to directly activate the big starter solenoid. But it is strong enough to activate an added start relay and that activates the starter when you don't want the starter! Even if the engine is already running. Even if you just want to sit there with the key on and engine not running.

Mark

Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:29 pm

Got it. I became confused during the discussion of the fusebox, and wasn't sure whether the "hot start" relays were installed up front ahead of the lock-out circuit, so I just assumed a bypass might work back near the starter. I've never owned/worked on a Vanagon auto. Very enlightening

Tue Mar 15, 2016 8:06 am

Caveat - I don't have the Bentley in front of me:

One of the main points of an extra start relay is to hugely reduce the current that flows through the ignition switch. I'd have thought it possible to add a relay up front just to accomplish this, even if it doesn't provide the added benefit of bypassing most of the original solenoid wiring.