TheSamba.com :: View topic - Tiptronic-Modification now public Domain

Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:14 am

rogertj wrote: Question? Could the 4WD in the 4motion (AWD) be reversed? like the subaru gears are doing it?

If you go with a manual transmission, the 4mot works reversed in a Vanagon.

Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:47 pm

xoo00oox wrote:
If you go with a manual transmission, the 4mot works reversed in a Vanagon.

I doubt that, unless we are thinking different solutions.
The Subaru gearbox uses new ring/pinion in the diff. And a flipped diff cage.

Audi/Passat do not have the room in the gearbox casing to allow the diff cage to be flipped. If those had, people would have done it decades ago.

While Subarus allow machining the gearbox shell to make room, the Audi doesn´t. You can see the bulge for the crown wheel in the lower right of this picture:
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2F...egUIARDIAg

Also, the clutch arm is in the way to create room for a new bulge on the lower left bellhousing.

All you could do (and people have done) is to mount the gearbox upside down...incl all the caveats

Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:04 pm

Ray_V6TDI wrote: xoo00oox wrote:
If you go with a manual transmission, the 4mot works reversed in a Vanagon.

I doubt that, unless we are thinking different solutions.
The Subaru gearbox uses new ring/pinion in the diff. And a flipped diff cage.

Audi/Passat do not have the room in the gearbox casing to allow the diff cage to be flipped. If those had, people would have done it decades ago.

While Subarus allow machining the gearbox shell to make room, the Audi doesn´t. You can see the bulge for the crown wheel in the lower right of this picture:
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2F...egUIARDIAg

Also, the clutch arm is in the way to create room for a new bulge on the lower left bellhousing.

All you could do (and people have done) is to mount the gearbox upside down...incl all the caveats

Yes, different solution. I'm talking about engine running counter clockwise and transmission and rear diff (now in the front) remaining unmodified.

Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:11 pm

I remember that thread, very impressive. But it´s only proven on 1,8T

On V6...not that I know of.

Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:40 pm

Would you be up for designing again Ray? I can send you some expense money for that. Is it expensive? I have a good good budy of mine that has a machine shop in San Clemente California hes in the aerospace industry and could figure out the apropiate shop for that or maybe after review he could do it for us. I just send him your design for a quote. Let me know. Send me a pm with your email to contact you and your current time zone.

Thanks my friend

Roger

Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:01 pm

xoo00oox wrote: rogertj wrote: Question? Could the 4WD in the 4motion (AWD) be reversed? like the subaru gears are doing it?

If you go with a manual transmission, the 4mot works reversed in a Vanagon.

Sorry for not answering your message xoo00oox I checked it on my phone and by the time I answered yours was present. Cool Ideas for us Vanagon lovers.

Do you have the thread for the mods that you and Ray are discussing to check them out?

Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:55 am

rogertj wrote: xoo00oox wrote: rogertj wrote: Question? Could the 4WD in the 4motion (AWD) be reversed? like the subaru gears are doing it?

If you go with a manual transmission, the 4mot works reversed in a Vanagon.

Sorry for not answering your message xoo00oox I checked it on my phone and by the time I answered yours was present. Cool Ideas for us Vanagon lovers.

Do you have the thread for the mods that you and Ray are discussing to check them out?

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=568346&highlight=quattrosyncro

Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:33 am

xoo00oox wrote: rogertj wrote: xoo00oox wrote: rogertj wrote: Question? Could the 4WD in the 4motion (AWD) be reversed? like the subaru gears are doing it?

If you go with a manual transmission, the 4mot works reversed in a Vanagon.

Sorry for not answering your message xoo00oox I checked it on my phone and by the time I answered yours was present. Cool Ideas for us Vanagon lovers.

Do you have the thread for the mods that you and Ray are discussing to check them out?

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=568346&highlight=quattrosyncro

Oyeah I remember that thread awesomeness!!!!

Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:54 am

rogertj wrote: Would you be up for designing again Ray?

Sorry, but no.

The 2WD version was completely reverse-engineered from scratch, back in 2004/2005.
Buying a trans, taking it apart, getting bolt patterns and other dimensions laser-measured etc.
Finding out the spline sizes of the gears...

I hoped to sell a few of these, in the end only three sets were made in total. Luckily, the other two reduced the net cost of mine.
I had personal interest to get mine rolling, but I don´t need the hassle again.

Also, I don´t have a 4WD gearbox available for research.

Another comparison I just found on my HDD:

Regards
Raimund
P.S. By the way: How do you want to shoehorn the 4WD into the Vanagon, when the extra propshaft flange would cut right through the rear crossmemeber where Vanagon´s gearbox is usually fastened?! Run the propshaft above the interior carpet?!

Thu Mar 23, 2023 12:15 pm

Ray_V6TDI wrote: rogertj wrote: Would you be up for designing again Ray?

Sorry, but no.

The 2WD version was completely reverse-engineered from scratch, back in 2004/2005.
Buying a trans, taking it apart, getting bolt patterns and other dimensions laser-measured etc.
Finding out the spline sizes of the gears...

I hoped to sell a few of these, in the end only three sets were made in total. Luckily, the other two reduced the net cost of mine.
I had personal interest to get mine rolling, but I don´t need the hassle again.

Also, I don´t have a 4WD gearbox available for research.

Another comparison I just found on my HDD:

Regards
Raimund
P.S. By the way: How do you want to shoehorn the 4WD into the Vanagon, when the extra propshaft flange would cut right through the rear crossmemeber where Vanagon´s gearbox is usually fastened?! Run the propshaft above the interior carpet?!

Thanks Ray for your response, bummer that you dont have a 4 motion handy if I were a millionar I would send your 3 to play with lol

Thu Mar 23, 2023 12:24 pm

Question is the red circle the ones that you were refering to?

Also what about the question mark that Ive placed, I imagine that does to have to ve modified?

Thu Mar 23, 2023 12:46 pm

The circles:

On 2WD, the planetary output shaft drives the first of the three middle gears.
On 4WD, that shaft runs THROUGH the first gear into the torsen diff, which is then driving both the first gear and the propshaft flange.

Clearly visible on the schematic drawing I am showing in the posts above.

What other question mark are you referring to?

Thu Mar 23, 2023 12:47 pm

Ray_V6TDI wrote: The circles:

On 2WD, the planetary output shaft drives the first of the three middle gears.
On 4WD, that shaft runs THROUGH the first gear into the torsen diff, which is then driving both the first gear and the propshaft flange.

Clearly visible on the schematic drawing I am showing in the posts above.

What other question mark are you referring to?

Ups! my bad, forgot to place the photo

Thu Mar 23, 2023 12:51 pm

Your circle shows the end of the 2WD version gearbox. Everything right of it is the 4WD content.
The two extra gears with the question mark are another ratio for the rear diff. The propshaft output flange is not directly behind the "drum" of the torsen diff, but on the lower gear (out of photo´s right side edge).

Those two gears are the ones named "Stirntrieb hinten", german for (?) spur drive rear (?)

Just imagine the picture flipped left to right, and it matches the photos.

Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:01 pm

Ok so the question would be if the "Stirntrieb hinten", german for (?) spur drive rear (?) need to be reversed?

I think not

Please excuse my ignorance

Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:16 pm

Ok, basic assumption:
you need to use the Audi rear diff on a vanagon´s front anyway, as the stock vanagon´s front diff won´t match ratios and tear you Van apart (or crunches it shorter...)

Now, say you reverse only the audi´s front output to use in a Vanagon´s rear:
the 2WD part (Audi front) now pushes the Vanagon forward,
the 4WD part (Audi rear) still pushes the Vanagon backwards.
...not good.

You need to reverse both (which, BTW, opens a new can of worms: adding a third gear to those you question-marked).

Or, the clever mean trick: You reverse only Audi´s front, and put Audi´s rear diff into the Vanagon´s front, but upside down!

Confused?!
You´re welcome ;-)
...been through all these thoughts, wanting to build a Vanagon quattro!
Still leaves the problem of the 4WD gearbox crashing into the vanagons´rear frame and your rear heat exchanger.

Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:27 pm

This is getting interesting!

ps i dont see a problem on the tranny support beam if they build trophy trucks out of metal tubes why dont build another cross beam for street use? Or may be rocks? lol

Sat Oct 21, 2023 11:46 pm

Hi Ray after many hours typing in reverse trans, transverse reverse rotation and getting all sorts of sites and nonsense I have landed here again in this world of amazement and knowledge, I recently posted about trying to do this on a golf transverse box or with a transverse dsg box as I was positive I could install my AWG engine transverse and reverse the gearbox direction but if this can be done installing longitude then i'm all in and already on e-something seeking a donor box. However the codes are coming up varying from 5hp19efr to 5hp19eyf so will this work or does it need to be the exact box and what other parts do i need to scavenge from the donor car.
This is an amazing topic

Sun Oct 22, 2023 4:19 am

Sometimes brilliant minds don't reap the rewards of their efforts.
Tesla comes to mind as does Goodyear.

Their ideas were capitalized on later and without any benefit to them.
Anyway..... I've never noticed this thread before.

It took me a while to realize what a Tiptronic is.
The idea is presented in German car guy language without any translation to what it is and how it affects or can help me .... mr dummy owner.

With the stupid amount of money owners are pouring into these old Vans I'm not convinced that your market is dead.
Our needed drive train parts have become scarce and at times non-existant.

I would encourage you to pick up your idea and reshop the gears you need.
If you offered a drop in transaxle all set up and ready to go I'm willing to bet money you would have a market throwing $$'s at you and probably a line waiting to buy.

But it needs to be plug and play (entire unit or a complete nuts to soup DIY kit) and you need to clearly tell the drive train ignorant owners like me exactly what you are selling and why I need it.

Tiptronic means nothing without some marketing educating me.

Dave

Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:37 am

The gearbox is a 5HP19FL
"5" speed, "HP19" is the strength (there are 5HP24 also which can take a higher torque), "FL" is frontdrive longitudinal. "FLA" would be all-wheel drive.

The EFR and stuff is the gearbox variation code, just like DG or MV for Waterboxers.

Every code has different ratios, especially in the gears I changed. If you don´t meet the correct ratio for the related trans ECU, and if the trans ECU won´t match your engine ECU, you will get in software trouble and limp modes.
So: Get a pair of engine/trans that belong together. Then get the exact gear ratio re-febricated for reversal of axle output.

A market is non-existant. I built three reversal sets in 2005, that´s it. Yes, i didn´t advertise a lot, but no one was willing to go the whole way.
The website is from 2005, in German, and the technical details should be translateable with modern AI, shouldn´t they?

By the way, attached the outcome of the last two days: All out!
Converter clutch, Turbo and (at least one) rocker arm busted/missing.
So there you go.