TheSamba.com :: View topic - Can a bad wheel bearing cause the car to pull to one side?

Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:52 pm

sb001 wrote: Just like a bad alignment would cause--but the seller just had an alignment done. He said it was not that bad, but it was more significant than just the crown of the road causing it. Which is why he was wondering about the wheel earing causing it

Just because a shop did the work, does not mean they did it right.

Have enough horror stories of dealing with repair shops just in our family.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:00 pm

Volks Wagen wrote:
Well I'm aware of the crowned road situation, but aside from that I read somewhere that the suspension was setup on road cars to veer slightly to the kerbside as a safety precaution - I don't know unconscious driver or something.... not saying it's true or good.

Sounds pretty silly when all an area needs to do is crown the roads so it sheds both water and unconscious drivers. If you find anything more about that, would like to hear about it.

Volks Wagen wrote:
I would use the term 'pulling' as any force against the direction I'm steering in, not just under braking. Different terms and definitions abound. I've always got a very GRADUAL 'pull' to the side even on the flat in numerous owned cars and countless rentals, brand new and regularly maintained, so I think it's not just coincidence.

Lots of talk on the radio about the amount of pot holes in the PNW here screwing up modern cars steering due to the suspension being lighter weaker than of days of old. Plus would bet that most rental shops are not going to drop everything to fix a little steering off to one side or the other. Time is money....

Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:29 am

Yes,a loose bearing can cause the wheel to slide in and out on the spindle...mechanics 101: if you suspect a loose wheel bearing don't drive the car till its fixed, neglected long enough it will come apart and the wheel will shoot off and pass you till the spindle hits the ground,at that point you not too interested in finding your wheel,you'll be engaged in shitting your pants.

Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:10 am

Take any statement a seller has given you as a possible big lie. Plus any good shop would inspect the wheel bearings and link/ball joints for at least too much slop.

Knew a fella who bought a sunroof split window bug that was supposed to be built from mostly NOS parts and no expense spared from a well known VW nut in Texas. Bug showed up in Seattle missing horn button, engine would not work at first and after full tune up was working on only 2-1/2 cylinders, windows would not move up and down properly due to broken gear teeth, rear hood had up to 1/2" bondo, front hood would not open, electrical system would not work, and much more was wrong. Found the horn button under the rear seat. It had been ground down to fit a smaller hole steering wheel and had tape wound around it to fit back into the stock steering wheel.
Took about $17,000 in NOS parts and labor to get everything right. New owner enjoyed it for the Summer season and then sold it to cover all the credit card charges he had.
We had offered to go down to inspect and tow it back from Texas for $500.00, and get to visit relation down there, but the fella insisted that the seller was so well known....

Met a young fellow who had just bought his first beetle that he found in a back yard. The DPO had told him "it ran when it was parked!". Engine would only turn less than one revolution. Had to take engine apart to find that a valve had broken off and gone thru the piston. So a complete engine rebuild was needed.

Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:35 pm

Eric&Barb wrote: Volks Wagen wrote:
Well I'm aware of the crowned road situation, but aside from that I read somewhere that the suspension was setup on road cars to veer slightly to the kerbside as a safety precaution - I don't know unconscious driver or something.... not saying it's true or good.

Sounds pretty silly when all an area needs to do is crown the roads so it sheds both water and unconscious drivers. If you find anything more about that, would like to hear about it.

Well here's something..
http://www.drive.com.au/tips-and-advice/qa-steering-pulling-to-the-left-20130823-2sfrw.html

I don't think it is silly at all. Clearly any car manufacturer who doesn't want his ass sued will err on the side of safety and make sure his vehicle is not going to wander across the road into oncoming traffic. The manufacturer cannot guarantee that the driver will stay conscious, and cannot guarantee that every road will be designed to push the car to the side in the case of 'dead driver', so it would be negligent of the manufacturer to make no attempt to bring the car to the safest position on the road in the event of 'dead driver'. What is under manufacturer control is how his vehicle is designed, so perhaps it is possible there is something designed in to bring the car very gradually to the kerb.

Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:02 pm

Yes a bad bearing will absolutely cause a pull and no, it does not need to make a bunch of noise to do it. I've seen this dozens of times over 26 years as a tech. I've even had bad rear bearings on FWD cars cause a car to pull.

Low tire pressure, dragging brakes, oil or brake fluid soaked shoes, bad ball joints, bad control arm bushings, bent control arms will all cause a pull.

brad

Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:11 pm

Volks Wagen wrote:
Well here's something..
http://www.drive.com.au/tips-and-advice/qa-steering-pulling-to-the-left-20130823-2sfrw.html

Just looks like the rumor is being passed on. Really would like to find legal or manufacture precedence. Did try some searches, but did not come up with anything...

Silly because there are places that drive on the other side of the road and enough autos travel from one country to another. Sure Japan and Australia do not get much in the way of tourist driving over, but what about the UK? So you take your European bought car and end up having it steer into oncoming traffic in the UK or visa versa.

As said before if that is a big factor just crowning the road works fine with a vehicle, and requires no passing laws that would require vehicle by vehicle inspection.

Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:04 pm

All vehicles are set up to inherently veer to the curb as a safety precaution. This is usually done by setting the camber and caster angles slightly different side to side. The car should not "pull", but left alone, will drift to the curb. I've also aligned RHD cars imported from Japan, and we had to change the alignments, because they would pull left.

brad

Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:42 pm

I rent about 80-100 cars a year and none of them drift to the curb on a flat road. If they did I would return to Hertz and get another one

Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:02 pm

What condition are the tires in?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:10 pm

Eric&Barb wrote: Volks Wagen wrote:
Well here's something..
http://www.drive.com.au/tips-and-advice/qa-steering-pulling-to-the-left-20130823-2sfrw.html

Just looks like the rumor is being passed on. Really would like to find legal or manufacture precedence. Did try some searches, but did not come up with anything...

You can't call it a rumour just because you don't believe it. You can't provide proof that refutes it. I've come up with a reference from another source and Slalombuggy here also has also provided corroborating information. Perhaps there is more truth in it than you think? See what happens when I do a bit of research - I've plenty of circumstantial evidence below.

Eric&Barb wrote:
Silly because there are places that drive on the other side of the road and enough autos travel from one country to another. [snip] So you take your European bought car and end up having it steer into oncoming traffic in the UK or visa versa.

Excuse me, but now you are being illogical. Far less autos travel from rhd to lhd countries or vice versa than remain in their native system. Travelling to another country is a temporary thing. If I was to put an estimate on how much traffic was created by cars designed for rhd in lhd countries (and vice versa) I'd say it is far far less than 1% of the traffic on roads worldwide at any given moment. Cars don't steer themselves across lanes while someone is in control. However there are definitely times when cars are uncontrolled and then free to steer themselves. A study referenced on the US CDC.gov site shows about 4% of drivers fall asleep at the wheel at least once in 30 days (http://www.cdc.gov/features/dsdrowsydriving/).

So taking that alone as an example, you're looking at a very limited risk of accidents being caused by uncontrolled vehicles from rhd countries visiting lhd countries - applying both numbers would give 0.04% as a very simplistic and non-perfect example, of the number of non-native unsteered vehicles - but you get the general math, and my point. Conversely, almost 100% of the risk occurs for rhd cars in rhd environments, and lhd cars in lhd environments. Therefore if a manufacturer were to attempt to avoid his vehicle causing havoc in the case of 'asleep at the wheel driving' he would design the car to gently pull to the kerb or shoulder of the road, based on the majority use.

So, let's see what common factors are present in these asleep-at-the-wheel crashes. From the Federal Highway Administration:

"Most crashes involving drowsy drivers occur when a vehicle strays off the roadway and flips over or hits a fixed object on the roadside. The driver is usually alone in the vehicle and makes no effort to avoid the crash.

These run-off-road (ROR) crashes take a large toll, accounting for one-third of all traffic fatalities nationwide and two-thirds of traffic fatalities in rural areas."

"How do you help a drowsy or distracted driver avoid crashing? One strategy is to install rumble strips on the roadway shoulders."

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/focus/99sep/rumble.cfm

Look - New Zealand government also say the best place for rumble strips is the SHOULDERS of the road, even though they also install them on centrelines etc

"Rumble strips will be installed along edgelines, as this is where they offer the greatest safety benefits."

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/network/operating/safely/doc/rumble-strips-q-a-200903.pdf

"Many drowsy-driving crashes also involve only a single vehicle, with no passengers besides the driver, running off the road at a high rate of speed with no evidence of braking. Drowsy-driving crashes also frequently occur on rural roads and highways."

So why is it that so much focus is put on the shoulder of the road as the best place to warn a driver of an unsteered vehicle of danger?

Simply put, because that is where the vehicle will steer towards if left untouched. Why? Because they are designed to do this as a safety measure.

Eric&Barb wrote:
As said before if that is a big factor just crowning the road works fine with a vehicle, and requires no passing laws that would require vehicle by vehicle inspection.

No it does not work fine, and even though you may have said it before, it remains unworkable. This is a totally offhand comment with no basis in fact at all, and just thrown in to distract. Let's see. Do cars veer to the side because of the road crown? Well, the federal highway agency tells us there's strict rules for road design that means minimum crown on the road. They state that the reason for the crown is to shed water and prevent ice buildup. The reason the crown is so minimal is to cause no noticeable effect to the vehicle trajectory.

So, no, the car does not veer to the side of the road as a result of the normal road design.

http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/geometric/pubs/mitigationstrategies/chapter3/3_crossslope.cfm

Furthermore, if the crown were to go outside of the fhwa spec for some reason it would be subject to "cross slope design exception" and bring risks of "run-off road" etc.

http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/geometric/pubs/mitigationstrategies/chapter3/3_crossslope.cfm

So, no, raising the crown on the road is not an acceptable measure to veer cars to the side, and you've just been shovelling out whatever came into your head as a counterargument.

Vehicles veer to the side of the road by design.

Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:27 pm

Abscate wrote: I rent about 80-100 cars a year and none of them drift to the curb on a flat road. If they did I would return to Hertz and get another one

This is a specific test you have done on 80-100 cars in the last year?

So can you confirm that you have taken your hands from the wheel on all of those rentals and driven on a flat road long enough to see if they will drift to the side over a reasonable distance?

From 80-100 cars at least one will veer in some direction - in or out - whether it be tyre pressure or alignment issues due to being bashed off kerbs. You are telling us they are all perfect and drive totally straight?

:lol:

Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:34 pm

Volks Wagen wrote: Eric&Barb wrote: Volks Wagen wrote:
Well here's something..
http://www.drive.com.au/tips-and-advice/qa-steering-pulling-to-the-left-20130823-2sfrw.html

Just looks like the rumor is being passed on. Really would like to find legal or manufacture precedence. Did try some searches, but did not come up with anything...

You can't call it a rumour just because you don't believe it. You can't provide proof that refutes it. I've come up with a reference from another source and Slalombuggy here also has also provided corroborating information. Perhaps there is more truth in it than you think? See what happens when I do a bit of research - I've plenty of circumstantial evidence below.

Eric&Barb wrote:
Silly because there are places that drive on the other side of the road and enough autos travel from one country to another. [snip] So you take your European bought car and end up having it steer into oncoming traffic in the UK or visa versa.

Excuse me, but now you are being illogical. Far less autos travel from rhd to lhd countries or vice versa than remain in their native system. Travelling to another country is a temporary thing. If I was to put an estimate on how much traffic was created by cars designed for rhd in lhd countries (and vice versa) I'd say it is far far less than 1% of the traffic on roads worldwide at any given moment. Cars don't steer themselves across lanes while someone is in control. However there are definitely times when cars are uncontrolled and then free to steer themselves. A study referenced on the US CDC.gov site shows about 4% of drivers fall asleep at the wheel at least once in 30 days (http://www.cdc.gov/features/dsdrowsydriving/).

So taking that alone as an example, you're looking at a very limited risk of accidents being caused by uncontrolled vehicles from rhd countries visiting lhd countries - applying both numbers would give 0.04% as a very simplistic and non-perfect example, of the number of non-native unsteered vehicles - but you get the general math, and my point. Conversely, almost 100% of the risk occurs for rhd cars in rhd environments, and lhd cars in lhd environments. Therefore if a manufacturer were to attempt to avoid his vehicle causing havoc in the case of 'asleep at the wheel driving' he would design the car to gently pull to the kerb or shoulder of the road, based on the majority use.

So, let's see what common factors are present in these asleep-at-the-wheel crashes. From the Federal Highway Administration:

"Most crashes involving drowsy drivers occur when a vehicle strays off the roadway and flips over or hits a fixed object on the roadside. The driver is usually alone in the vehicle and makes no effort to avoid the crash.

These run-off-road (ROR) crashes take a large toll, accounting for one-third of all traffic fatalities nationwide and two-thirds of traffic fatalities in rural areas."

"How do you help a drowsy or distracted driver avoid crashing? One strategy is to install rumble strips on the roadway shoulders."

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/focus/99sep/rumble.cfm

Look - New Zealand government also say the best place for rumble strips is the SHOULDERS of the road, even though they also install them on centrelines etc

"Rumble strips will be installed along edgelines, as this is where they offer the greatest safety benefits."

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/network/operating/safely/doc/rumble-strips-q-a-200903.pdf

"Many drowsy-driving crashes also involve only a single vehicle, with no passengers besides the driver, running off the road at a high rate of speed with no evidence of braking. Drowsy-driving crashes also frequently occur on rural roads and highways."

So why is it that so much focus is put on the shoulder of the road as the best place to warn a driver of an unsteered vehicle of danger?

Simply put, because that is where the vehicle will steer towards if left untouched. Why? Because they are designed to do this as a safety measure.

Eric&Barb wrote:
As said before if that is a big factor just crowning the road works fine with a vehicle, and requires no passing laws that would require vehicle by vehicle inspection.

No it does not work fine, and even though you may have said it before, it remains unworkable. This is a totally offhand comment with no basis in fact at all, and just thrown in to distract. Let's see. Do cars veer to the side because of the road crown? Well, the federal highway agency tells us there's strict rules for road design that means minimum crown on the road. They state that the reason for the crown is to shed water and prevent ice buildup. The reason the crown is so minimal is to cause no noticeable effect to the vehicle trajectory.

So, no, the car does not veer to the side of the road as a result of the normal road design.

http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/geometric/pubs/mitigationstrategies/chapter3/3_crossslope.cfm

Furthermore, if the crown were to go outside of the fhwa spec for some reason it would be subject to "cross slope design exception" and bring risks of "run-off road" etc.

http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/geometric/pubs/mitigationstrategies/chapter3/3_crossslope.cfm

So, no, raising the crown on the road is not an acceptable measure to veer cars to the side, and you've just been shovelling out whatever came into your head as a counterargument.

Vehicles veer to the side of the road by design.
Enlighten me, Herr Volks Wagen, who are you arguing with here?
Is it Eric?-------or Barb? I never know which one is talking. Maybe they take turns. What if one is right but the other one is wrong? Then what? :?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:15 pm

Iowegian, it doesn't matter what I'm doing really. I'm just exercising my fingers, debating, and trying to defend a point really. The point doesn't matter anymore, the defense of the point is what I've focused on now. And I take umbrage to offhand 'facts' being thrown around. I'm going deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole here to find the truth about veering and pulling.

Eric&Barb may be siamese twins and both may be schizophrenic, giving at least 4 personas in one body. If all 4 of those personas fell asleep at the wheel, they would drift to the side of the road because of engineered in veer/drift/pull - that's my contention.

Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:58 pm

Volks Wagen wrote:
Eric&Barb may be siamese twins and both may be schizophrenic, giving at least 4 personas in one body. If all 4 of those personas fell asleep at the wheel, they would drift to the side of the road because of engineered in veer/drift/pull - that's my contention.

All the data in your last post can be seen both ways that either steering must be set to veer or crown the road toward the ditch. Sure any highway system does not want too much crowning as stated in that DOT "Cross Slope Clarification", but there is still crowning.

We can go down any crowned road with any of our VWs and let go of steering wheel and off toward the ditch it goes. Same VW find a super flat parking lot and let go of the wheel and the VW steers straight.

Would really like to see some legal/rules of some automobile manufacture or bigger country that says automobiles must on a flat surface be aligned to steer toward the ditch. Until then will just have to agree to disagree.

Actually most of the time I (Eric) does most of the typing into this website, but often enough Barb puts her 2 cents in about the subject at hand. So since both of us are inputting....

Sat Apr 30, 2016 7:39 pm

Wow, this has gone so far off topic.

sb001, what was the verdict for your friend? Did he end up buying the car?

Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:00 pm

Eric&Barb wrote:

Actually most of the time I (Eric) does most of the typing into this website, but often enough Barb puts her 2 cents in about the subject at hand. So since both of us are inputting....
Thanks for clarifying that, Eric.
It is so nice to see young folks today sharing the household duties.
Tell Barb that I said "hello".

Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:27 pm

Has anyone had to visit a FLAPS to buy a wheel bearing recently? In Winnemucca, NV., when you need to buy a bearing and they are lucky enough to have one- they hand you a small grease packet about the size of a ketchup pack. Those of you who use that as the only source of grease for a new bearing are creating exactly what sb001's friend is learning. Improperly packed bearings are a common cause of failure if everything else is torqued and mic'd to spec. Hell yes, the bearing can cause a pull- and you need to learn a "bad bearing" is a general term. Bad installation and bad maintenance is more common. Why on earth do you suspect a grinding bearing on the pulling side to NOT be part of the issue? A fool takes that seller's word and doesn't check the tire health and everything else.

It whines when it hurts- it' a car's safe word. When the bearing asks for more lube, don't just keep dry docking it.

P.S. Congrats on scoring a friend sb! 8)

Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:14 pm

Volks Wagen wrote:
Vehicles veer to the side of the road by design.

Find one law that mandates this and I will be impressed.
I do know that some car's factory specs are set up to cause the car to drift gently to the right, but this is by no means universally practiced, and I have yet to find any law that mandates it.

Suspension geometry on modern cars is symmetrical and self centering, the car will go straight, indefinitely, on a flat surface, without a driver. Unless the alignment has purposefully been put "off" - and some factories will give specs to dealer's shops to do just that. But it is not something which is inherent in the design of the car, and can be adjusted out.

As for the original question, a tight bearing could cause a car to pull. A loose bearing could make the steering feel vague and uncertain. Lots of other things can cause a car to pull. Unevenly worn front tires, improper tire pressure, brake issues, etc.

Sun May 01, 2016 5:55 am

Volks Wagen wrote: Eric&Barb wrote: Volks Wagen wrote:
Well here's something..
http://www.drive.com.au/tips-and-advice/qa-steering-pulling-to-the-left-20130823-2sfrw.html

Just looks like the rumor is being passed on. Really would like to find legal or manufacture precedence. Did try some searches, but did not come up with anything...

You can't call it a rumour just because you don't believe it. You can't provide proof that refutes it. I've come up with a reference from another source and Slalombuggy here also has also provided corroborating information. Perhaps there is more truth in it than you think? See what happens when I do a bit of research - I've plenty of circumstantial evidence below.

Eric&Barb wrote:
Silly because there are places that drive on the other side of the road and enough autos travel from one country to another. [snip] So you take your European bought car and end up having it steer into oncoming traffic in the UK or visa versa.

Excuse me, but now you are being illogical. Far less autos travel from rhd to lhd countries or vice versa than remain in their native system. Travelling to another country is a temporary thing. If I was to put an estimate on how much traffic was created by cars designed for rhd in lhd countries (and vice versa) I'd say it is far far less than 1% of the traffic on roads worldwide at any given moment. Cars don't steer themselves across lanes while someone is in control. However there are definitely times when cars are uncontrolled and then free to steer themselves. A study referenced on the US CDC.gov site shows about 4% of drivers fall asleep at the wheel at least once in 30 days (http://www.cdc.gov/features/dsdrowsydriving/).

So taking that alone as an example, you're looking at a very limited risk of accidents being caused by uncontrolled vehicles from rhd countries visiting lhd countries - applying both numbers would give 0.04% as a very simplistic and non-perfect example, of the number of non-native unsteered vehicles - but you get the general math, and my point. Conversely, almost 100% of the risk occurs for rhd cars in rhd environments, and lhd cars in lhd environments. Therefore if a manufacturer were to attempt to avoid his vehicle causing havoc in the case of 'asleep at the wheel driving' he would design the car to gently pull to the kerb or shoulder of the road, based on the majority use.

So, let's see what common factors are present in these asleep-at-the-wheel crashes. From the Federal Highway Administration:

"Most crashes involving drowsy drivers occur when a vehicle strays off the roadway and flips over or hits a fixed object on the roadside. The driver is usually alone in the vehicle and makes no effort to avoid the crash.

These run-off-road (ROR) crashes take a large toll, accounting for one-third of all traffic fatalities nationwide and two-thirds of traffic fatalities in rural areas."

"How do you help a drowsy or distracted driver avoid crashing? One strategy is to install rumble strips on the roadway shoulders."

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/focus/99sep/rumble.cfm

Look - New Zealand government also say the best place for rumble strips is the SHOULDERS of the road, even though they also install them on centrelines etc

"Rumble strips will be installed along edgelines, as this is where they offer the greatest safety benefits."

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/network/operating/safely/doc/rumble-strips-q-a-200903.pdf

"Many drowsy-driving crashes also involve only a single vehicle, with no passengers besides the driver, running off the road at a high rate of speed with no evidence of braking. Drowsy-driving crashes also frequently occur on rural roads and highways."

So why is it that so much focus is put on the shoulder of the road as the best place to warn a driver of an unsteered vehicle of danger?

Simply put, because that is where the vehicle will steer towards if left untouched. Why? Because they are designed to do this as a safety measure.

Eric&Barb wrote:
As said before if that is a big factor just crowning the road works fine with a vehicle, and requires no passing laws that would require vehicle by vehicle inspection.

No it does not work fine, and even though you may have said it before, it remains unworkable. This is a totally offhand comment with no basis in fact at all, and just thrown in to distract. Let's see. Do cars veer to the side because of the road crown? Well, the federal highway agency tells us there's strict rules for road design that means minimum crown on the road. They state that the reason for the crown is to shed water and prevent ice buildup. The reason the crown is so minimal is to cause no noticeable effect to the vehicle trajectory.

So, no, the car does not veer to the side of the road as a result of the normal road design.

http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/geometric/pubs/mitigationstrategies/chapter3/3_crossslope.cfm

Furthermore, if the crown were to go outside of the fhwa spec for some reason it would be subject to "cross slope design exception" and bring risks of "run-off road" etc.

http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/geometric/pubs/mitigationstrategies/chapter3/3_crossslope.cfm

So, no, raising the crown on the road is not an acceptable measure to veer cars to the side, and you've just been shovelling out whatever came into your head as a counterargument.

Vehicles veer to the side of the road by design.

you forgot to add a picture of the author