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Multi69s Mon May 23, 2016 12:36 pm

In my 36 years of driving, I have never had a car with AC. That's because in all of those years my DD has always been an ACVW (mostly Type 1s). It may not be Arizona here, but we average over 30 days a year where the temps are over 100 degrees. I'm just tired of feeling like a wet mop every time I drive somewhere. So about a month back, there was a VW show/swap in my area, and I took some of my 30 years of hoarding there and made a few slush fund $$s. I told the wife, that this money is for the AC in my Squareback. When I had the engine out to do the heads a while back (Type 4), I got a compressor from Gilmores. Then I have been digging though all of my AC parts for the best pieces. However, when I took my evaporator and condenser in to be flushed, I was told that my condenser would not work well with 134. So I have one coming on Friday. Since I just submitted my grades, I am done for the semester, so hopefully it will go fast. On the ironic side, I have a 2:00 meeting today, since I was picked to be on the hiring committee for a new AC instructor at my school #-o .

Also as usual, I will post pictures along the way.

I have also been bugging Tram quite a bit, so he will get a nice present when the smoke clears.

Also, for those of you who have been waiting for AC forever, Gilmores is supposed to be getting very close to releasing the Type 3 version. When I talked with Ed last week, he said that the first batch of Type 3 compressor mounts were being laser cut as we were speaking.

raygreenwood Mon May 23, 2016 2:18 pm

Multi69s wrote: In my 36 years of driving, I have never had a car with AC. That's because in all of those years my DD has always been an ACVW (mostly Type 1s). It may not be Arizona here, but we average over 30 days a year where the temps are over 100 degrees. I'm just tired of feeling like a wet mop every time I drive somewhere. So about a month back, there was a VW show/swap in my area, and I took some of my 30 years of hoarding there and made a few slush fund $$s. I told the wife, that this money is for the AC in my Squareback. When I had the engine out to do the heads a while back (Type 4), I got a compressor from Gilmores. Then I have been digging though all of my AC parts for the best pieces. However, when I took my evaporator and condenser in to be flushed, I was told that my condenser would not work well with 134. So I have one coming on Friday. Since I just submitted my grades, I am done for the semester, so hopefully it will go fast. On the ironic side, I have a 2:00 meeting today, since I was picked to be on the hiring committee for a new AC instructor at my school #-o .

Also as usual, I will post pictures along the way.

I have also been bugging Tram quite a bit, so he will get a nice present when the smoke clears.

Also, for those of you who have been waiting for AC forever, Gilmores is supposed to be getting very close to releasing the Type 3 version. When I talked with Ed last week, he said that the first batch of Type 3 compressor mounts were being laser cut as we were speaking.

You need to read Piledrivers very detailed thread about adding AC to his type 3 in the Shoptalkforums. It has a lot of information about charge weight, testing, parts, fabrication etc. Ray

Donnie strickland Mon May 23, 2016 3:01 pm

I wish mine still had it. The original owner had it installed at the VW dealer, 4 years after buying the car new. It was long gone when I bought the car from his grandson, the only remnants being the special fan pulley and bolt (and the extra holes in the fan shroud).

Multi69s Mon May 23, 2016 6:49 pm

raygreenwood wrote:
You need to read Piledrivers very detailed thread about adding AC to his type 3 in the Shoptalkforums. It has a lot of information about charge weight, testing, parts, fabrication etc. Ray

Even though I have a pretty good idea of what I want to do. I'll definitely check out his post. To be a good teacher (or fabricator) usually means that you are a good thief. Stealing good ideas and using them, or tweaking them to your needs, definitely beats reinventing the wheel.

raygreenwood Mon May 23, 2016 7:57 pm

Multi69s wrote: raygreenwood wrote:
You need to read Piledrivers very detailed thread about adding AC to his type 3 in the Shoptalkforums. It has a lot of information about charge weight, testing, parts, fabrication etc. Ray

Even though I have a pretty good idea of what I want to do. I'll definitely check out his post. To be a good teacher (or fabricator) usually means that you are a good thief. Stealing good ideas and using them, or tweaking them to your needs, definitely beats reinventing the wheel.

There is a lot of tech in that thread and sveral related threads....concerning compressor types, mounts, controls, charge levels, pressures....etc. Very good info. Ray

piledriver Mon May 23, 2016 9:10 pm

Donnie strickland wrote: I wish mine still had it. The original owner had it installed at the VW dealer, 4 years after buying the car new. It was long gone when I bought the car from his grandson, the only remnants being the special fan pulley and bolt (and the extra holes in the fan shroud).

The original dealer or aftermarket AC installs were ~all done by a guy getting paid by the job who just wanted to get to the next one as quickly as possible.

You can do better.

You are really far better off without the original junk AC bits in the way, or even with a non-AC car to start with.

Its not designed for R134a, won't work with barrier hose, would cost more to clean than replace even if you could use it, and is essentially all trash.

Modern compressors/condensers are so much better than the 70s era stuff its not even funny.

The only thing really potentially useful is the compressor mounting bracket, as you can get an off the shelf adapter to bolt a modern-ish Sanden compressor in place of the original York.

If someone fabbed THOSE (FOR sanden compressors), the rest of the "kit" is pretty much all std off the shelf parts.

The lines, fittings 70's evap and condenser... really all the hard parts really need replaced outright.

The compressor and condenser mounts are 95% of the job.

Once those and the evap unit is hung, the rest sort of ends up as a simple game of routing and connecting hoses.

A modern under-dash evap setup can be had for ~$100, and will look and work FAR better than a 40 year old junkyard find, or even NO$$$ under dash unit.

If you have a late car a 12x12 parallel condenser/fan setup can fit behind the headlight with plenty of clearance.
I thought I might need one on the other side but it looks like thats simply where the charge cooler is probably going.
(might work on early car, don't have one to test)

I though about simply opening up the back of the headlight bucket for airflow but ended up with a playing card size hole behind the bumper for an inlet. (basically blew out the already jacked up bumper slot 4" wide)

Works fine, and ~invisible on a fat chick unless you really look.

Doing it with a T4 swap is easier on the motor side, as the engine was designed with AC in mind, with a handy place to bolt the compressor bracket on the fan housing.

You can get Goodyear barrier hose for next to nothing off Amazon, far cheaper than off ebay by the foot, even if you end up using a 5 foot bit of the 25' roll.
Sell the excess on ebay :twisted:

An $11 PVC tubing cutter from Home Depot makes very short work of the barrier hose, and cuts square, just touch the edge up a bit first so it slices the Kevlar clean.

Donnie strickland Tue May 24, 2016 3:27 am

piledriver wrote: You can do better.

Yes. :)

I wish it still had A/C. I don't wish it had the original A/C.

Multi69s, did you see Ronbug73's recent thread about installing A/C in his Fastback?
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6...highlight=

Multi69s Tue May 24, 2016 4:18 am

Since some of you probably havenít seen all of my threads, Iíll start from the beginning. The engine in my Squareback is a Type 4, and I have the fan housing with the compressor mounts already. At 1st I was going to make all of my system, but the last time the engine was out, I picked up a compressor and mount kit from Gilmores.



However, when I installed the engine, I ran into a clearance issue. 1st I had to use a little english with a hammer to make some room for the compressor.



Then I had to clock the compressor at a different angle so the hose fitting wouldnít hit.



Fast forward to now, I took the condenser and evaporator cores to a shop that only does custom AC units to get them flushed of the R12 oil. That was a learning experience. Straight off he told me that my condenser was inadequate for 134. I then got a personalized education on what I needed to get. He told me that my evaporator would be fine, and gave me some sizes to shoot for as far as the condenser. I ended up getting a 24Ē X 11Ē to replace the one I had. I will be mounting it in front of the beam, since that is where my old one sat. In fact, it looks about like ronbug73ís. I will be removing the spare tire tub though. I donít store my tire there, and it looks like it blocks the air flow, so I will just cover the hole with a plate.

Iím not sure at this point what I will do exactly for a fan unit. The stock condenser had a 9Ē fan with a shroud. I might try and adapt it to the new condenser. However, I also have a 10Ē pusher fan, so I might use that, or even both. If I do go both, I will have to do some rewiring though. So until the condenser comes in, I will be restoring the evaporator. Here is the core, flushed and ready to go.



Here is a before shot of the evaporator face plate. It needs a little love.




raygreenwood Tue May 24, 2016 5:51 am

Ah! Now I remember Yes....you are far along. Ray

Multi69s Tue May 24, 2016 9:48 am

I also plan on running the AC lines like this.





They just seem to be tucked away a little better.

Also, I am open to thoughts regarding the condenser fans from my previous post. I'm not too worried about air flow when moving, just when I am stopped. Right now the condenser is mounted to the car for sizing purposes, but I will drop it today so you can see the picture of the fan and shroud.

piledriver Tue May 24, 2016 11:06 am

I found I could get away with a tiny condenser (suggested by my AC plumbing "kit" guy, I figured it would need double that) but it is carefully sealed to the fender and isolated hot side/cold side, so it cannot see recirculate its cooling air.

With a good 10" cooling fan and the simple sealing work, it cools just fine sitting in traffic in >>100F heat and 100% humidity.


It looks like all the pics in the stf thread got delinked during the latest server upgrade, will have to find them again, I don't have them on my desktop either, need to fix that too.

Donnie strickland Tue May 24, 2016 3:05 pm

Multi69s wrote: I also plan on running the AC lines like this.





They just seem to be tucked away a little better.

That's where they were on my car. I know, because whoever removed them left all the little screw holes in the pan, so I had to plug them up when I got the car. Probably that was the VW-approved routing.

Multi69s Tue May 24, 2016 11:54 pm

Small Update



After a little love

air-h2o-air Wed May 25, 2016 7:22 am

Great work, and while in the still creating stage...remember that R134a has a difficult time releasing the heat that it accumulates....Condenser and fan can make or break a system on it's cooling abilities....More condenser and fan is always better

Multi69s Wed May 25, 2016 11:17 am

air-h2o-air wrote: Great work, and while in the still creating stage...remember that R134a has a difficult time releasing the heat that it accumulates....Condenser and fan can make or break a system on it's cooling abilities....More condenser and fan is always better

When I was getting schooled at the AC shop, I was told the difference was about 30%. That is why I went with the largest condenser that would fit in the original location. Worst case scenario, I would run 2 condensers in series.

piledriver Wed May 25, 2016 11:36 am

Multi69s wrote: air-h2o-air wrote: Great work, and while in the still creating stage...remember that R134a has a difficult time releasing the heat that it accumulates....Condenser and fan can make or break a system on it's cooling abilities....More condenser and fan is always better

When I was getting schooled at the AC shop, I was told the difference was about 30%. That is why I went with the largest condenser that would fit in the original location. Worst case scenario, I would run 2 condensers in series.

A modern parallel flow condenser is ~3-4x as efficient as an old school serpentine flow, largely due to a much better internal volume/surface area ratio.

Agreed it cannot be too big, but good ducting//airflow control and prevention of recirculating hot air goes a long way. The effective area of my condenser is only 12" x 11". Works well in Dallas with 100+ heat and high humidity.

If you use two condensers, they go in parallel, not series.

Bobnotch Wed May 25, 2016 5:27 pm

Donnie strickland wrote: Multi69s wrote: I also plan on running the AC lines like this.





They just seem to be tucked away a little better.

That's where they were on my car. I know, because whoever removed them left all the little screw holes in the pan, so I had to plug them up when I got the car. Probably that was the VW-approved routing.

That's where the AC line were routed on my old 70 Squareback too. They fit really nicely in that trough.

Multi69s Fri May 27, 2016 1:50 am

New Parts came in the mail today.



I'll say one thing, the new fan really moves some air. I stood it up on a table to test it out (careful with fingers), when I connect 12V to it, it went to town. About a foot away on the same table were some Sunday comics I was going to read, it picked up the comics, sucked them in and shredded them like a paper shredder. It moves so much air over the stocker. There is a fan shroud with stock fan on the back of the condenser. Ideally, I would like to pull the stock fan off and replace it with the new one. However, I think the new fan will hit the beam. So I was thinking why not use both, leave the stock fan and mount the new on the front of the condenser. However the power draw of both fans may be too much for the existing wiring, so I came up with this wiring scheme.



Then another thought popped in my head, you should only needed the fan when stopped, so if I mount the fans front to back, it would seem like I would loose the effect of the shroud, and just be cooling the center section of the condenser. Then came another idea -



The top picture is the stock fan and shroud. What if I were to remove the stock fan, and close up the hole. Then cut a series of holes in the shroud that would at least equal the CFM of the one large hole, and mount the new fan on the front as a pusher. It seems like it would cause the air to be dispersed more evenly through the condenser.

However, in no way am I an expert in fluid dynamics. Right now my head is hurting from all the what ifs. Please take a look at my ideas, and give me your opinions. However, if some of them are fruitier then a fruit cake let me know.

Maybe the best thing to do would be to eliminate the shroud, buy another fan, and put them both on the front - I better go to bed ](*,)

Multi69s Fri May 27, 2016 12:49 pm

Since I have most of the big parts, I have been doing a cost analysis of the hoses and fittings. Either I am very lucky where I live, or there are a lot of people getting ripped off on EBay, and Amazon. Across the board, the fittings have been roughly the same price. However, it is the hose where the cost really changes. I can't touch my local cost even close from the online stores. As an example:

#10 - $2.74/foot
#8 - $2.25/foot
#6 - $1.94/foot

I think it was Piledriver that said it: "One of the largest cost is in the hoses and fittings". I believe that it will cost me close to $200 for the complete hoses.

I'll know better when I get all of the big parts installed. To get a fairly accurate length, I plan on running a couple of water hoses down the path I want to take for the 8 & 10, then add a little fudge. For the 6 I will do the same thing, but use some breather hose I have laying around.

However, I have to take a couple of days break. We're getting ready for a little mini vacation, where we take the Baja, but it had developed shifting problems. Sometimes it doesn't want to go into second but, if you shift it into reverse at a stop, it will then shift fine. I am running a bus transmission with a 10 degree mount, so the hockey stick can still be in the tunnel. This can lead to non standard problems. So I will start with the basics. Check motor mounts for tightness, and the conditions of the coupler and bushing. Then back to the AC

piledriver Fri May 27, 2016 9:38 pm

I fought that "retail" price/foot idiocy for weeks looking for a decent source...
It was pretty obvious when I found it, I think I finally stumbled across a part# for the 25' boxes...

I initially considered going with hardlines and short flex sections, but I don't think I can get SS tubing for that the Barrier hose actually goes for.

Goodyear barrier hose is ~$0.38-$0.44 a foot off Amazon, usually with free shipping.
You just have to by 25 foot rolls.
This still is usually cheaper than by the foot even for the hopefully short -6 run of condenser>dryer>TX valve on the evaporator.
(That run and your condenser size mostly determine your freon requirements, as that section is high pressure liquid)

I have two more vehicles to install AC in so very little will go to waste.

You really need most of that 25' anyway for the -8 and -10 long runs back to the engine and to a front mount condenser, IIRC mine were about 17 feet, and I ran it ~straight down the tunnel.

You can even buy it through O'Reilly Auto parts if you hit a store with corporate sales desk, but it will cost a bit more, just faster.

Its sold under the "Murray" brand of Four-Seasons, but its Goodyear AC barrier hose, nice and fresh.
(I imagine that's what 99 44/100ths% of the hose on ebay actually is)
Murray hasn't actually made hose in ages.

I bought a full hydraulic crimper set, it was still cheaper than having them made, and I knew things were clocked absolutely right.
Took an hour, did most of the crimps in place.

I bought a "kit' (minus hose) from "johnjoysyl" on ebay, ~best prices, and have been a repeat customer. He's easy to work with and has been at this for ages, and can customize his kits as he puts them together. get a LOT of extra lined hose clamps, the kit only has a few for typical front engine installs, really want one every 12-18".

Turns out he's ~in my area so i typically get USPS 2-3 day priority, overnight.
(cheaper than driving)



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