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Fri May 27, 2016 5:33 am

OK, I've read a lot about clocking, disassembly/reassembly, packing etc... of CV joints, and also done all that. There's seems to be some question, at least for me, on when to use the concave washers. I've seen some applications that don't use the concave washers, and of course some that do. Does it depend on the axle shaft, the inner ball cage width, or what exactly?? Can't determine if some axles were made not to run the washer and others were, or if the actual width or thickness of the inner ball cage is different for different CV joints?

While on the CV subject, do the axles that have the raised sections on the inner part where the end of the CV boot sits in between, need clamps to keep the grease intact?

Fri May 27, 2016 6:18 am

I used zip ties on the ends of the boots. If the concave washers are not put on, it's due to lazyness. Or because it was forgotten and someone didn't want to take off the joints and put it back on.

Fri May 27, 2016 8:30 am

Concave washers (metric lockwashers) are available in little drawers at Ace Hardware near me.

Fri May 27, 2016 9:10 am

I think the OP is talking about the big dished spring washer that goes between the axle and the CVJ. It has been determined by VW that those dished washers should not be used on bus CVJ's, and if originally
present, they should be removed. I've seen no such warning regarding CVJ's on Type I's or other vehicles. It has never been explained by any authoritative source just why those instructions are given,
although of course there has been lots of speculation.

Regarding the little dished lockwashers (Schnorr washers) under the CVJ bolt heads, the Type I Bentley states that no lockwashers of any kind should be under the CVJ bolt heads, as they
have been "discontinued and are unnecessary". Again, the opposite injunction appears in the bus (Type II) manual. Very strange.

As far as I can tell, all the manuals state that clamps on the small end of the CVJ boot are not to be used if the axle has two retaining ridges.

Fri May 27, 2016 2:43 pm

From my understanding, the concave washers were mainly used to reduce drive train noise. As the axle goes though its arc (it's actually a compound arc), the CVs Move on the axle splines. The concave washer would take up any slack that there might be in the whole axle assembly (think spring). Then as the axle position changes, as well as the CVs, the Concave washer will compress to allow for CV movement, yet keep the whole assembly tight.

In the off road world where travel is greatly increased, The splines on the axles are much longer, since the CVs move more as the axle goes through its arc. In fact you should be able to grab the axle and move it back and forth between the wheel and transmission.

So if your axle has the Concave washer on there, that is fine, as long as it is orientated right. However, if it is missing, you will never know the difference.

Fri May 27, 2016 8:27 pm

Thanks kreemoweet and Multi69s for the responses. The obvious next question if you can run without the concave washer, is what about the extra travel on the splines the CV joint will now have as a result of no concave washer, and how does that impact the seating of the circlip on the end of the axle as far as the CV joint moving around and banging up against it? I'm concerned about the CV joint popping off the circlip. Wonder if bus axles have less spline length than Type 1 axles? Trying to do this right the first time and not have to go back in once the circlip pops off while driving.

Fri May 27, 2016 9:38 pm

beetlenut wrote: . . . once the circlip pops off while driving.

Why would you think the circlip is going to pop off? That circlip is going nowhere unless it gets expanded to a larger ID than the axle OD. The joint inner race
"banging" against the circlip is not going to make it expand. Probably hundreds of thousands of Type II's are or have been running with no concave washer without
the circlip coming off. Anyway, why would you think to leave the circlip off? Just because a lot of bus owners do? Like I said, no one knows why the Bentley Type II
manual contains those instructions. It's a fact that there are quite a few errors in the Bentley manuals.

Fri May 27, 2016 9:38 pm

I've never seen a bus circlip pop off in stock height applications. In regards to the spline length it's impossible to install the circlip without compressing the washer with a press on a bus axle, when used without the washer it just goes on, maybe 1mm-1.5mm play.

I can't add much to the washer under the bolt argument, although I have seen vehicles with recycled washers (splines smoothed off) as well as no washers go forever without the bolts loosening up, proper torque and the link plates under the bolts usually do it just fine. A retorque after a hundred miles usually sets them for the life of the boots.

Fri May 27, 2016 9:45 pm

I think the spring washer was used mainly out of principle.
Others, (certainly Germans), were "concerned" about what trouble could result if things are allowed excessive freedom they do not require.

However, as Americans, we also should also be able to look at it a different way. Let us ALLOW it freedom, and see what happens. If you do this, I think you will find nothing bad does happen, tho I won't guarantee it.
And if this is true, it means the Germans installed a lot of spring washers on principle. Which... isn't unthinkable. They did have a general problem with that occasionally. (aka totalitarianism)

I prefer Libertarian principles when it comes to fasteners.

Sat May 28, 2016 7:17 am

kreemoweet wrote: beetlenut wrote: . . . once the circlip pops off while driving.

Why would you think the circlip is going to pop off?

Well like I said, my concern without the concave washer, would be the additional slop introduced into the assembly, and the CV joint being able to move sideways on the splines. I didn't know, if under certain driving circumstances, whether that additional slop or movement would/could damage or unseat the circlip at the end of the axle holding everything together.

Because I've read in other CV threads about other people using and not using the concave washer, I was trying to understand how that was ok, given the extra slop introduced.

Needing a press to get the circlip on using that concave washer makes sense, as last time I reassembled, I had a Bitch of a time getting it seated.

So rather than dealing with a circlip coming off, and the ensuing lovely molybdenum mess, I was looking for more information to decide if this time I was going to reassemble with/without the concave washer. Have to say I'm still on the fence about this one. :?

Sat May 28, 2016 12:58 pm

Let me put it this way, on may Baja I have ran without the concave washer for over 7 years, and I have pounded the snot out of it. With stock suspension you will NEVER pull off the circlip. There is no force applied to it on a normal street bug. However, if you increase the rear travel, but use stock axles, there will be a point where the CV does excerpt force on the circlip. However, in 99% of the cases, the circlip stays in place and the CV joint inner cage breaks.

You are making a too big of deal out of it. Visit the off-road page and talk about the same subject. On there nobody is using the washer and the forces they are putting on the CVs, Axles, and circlip are exponential compared to you.

Sat May 28, 2016 5:38 pm

OK, fair enough. The last time I was trying to put the circlip on with the concave washer, for various reasons I had a lot of difficulty getting the circlip seated in the groove it lives in. That's the reason I'm making a too big of deal out of it.

Today however, I managed to clock and reassemble one axle using the concave washers, and got the circlips to seat well. So all's good. One thing I think made a difference was dressing the ends of the splines on the axle, and inner splines on the ballhub with a jewelers file. Made mating the CV joint up with the axle much easier.

Thanks all for all the thoughts and advice.