TheSamba.com :: View topic - Subarugears 4.868 Ring & Pinion

Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:53 pm

Trust me left driver side auto axles are 20.9" or 531mm . I have to get with Todd as I already had him correct it once before . It use to say passenger side but in AUS the vans are right hand drive so there it was fine. Not here.

Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:03 pm

I hate to muddy this up even more, but the axles I found were actually closer to 20.5 inches.

These are still working fine after (almost exactly) 3 years. The anniversary of my test drive with the Subaru MT5 is actually next week. :)

Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:58 pm

Air cooled auto axles are different to the water cooled auto axles due to the tramsmission being further forward. Just something to remember when looking for axles.

Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:00 pm

I am having a very frustrating time trying to set up my Subarugears ring and pinion. If I use the supplied pinion depth gauge, I come up with a .5mm required shim depth and upon inserting it I am getting a perfect zero setting according to the pinion depth tool. I am setting the backlash to the recommended ~.006" and the wear patterns on the drive and coast sides are nowhere near centered.

I have taken it apart many times and played with different shim settings going all the way up to near 1MM and down to zero by removing all the shims, but still can't get the wear pattern to center.

My patterns are very simular to OP Carltron's pics below which don't show the drive side pattern moving much from the toe, or the coast side moving much from the heel. I saw that Todd from Subarugears ended up sending you a new gauge and ring and R&P, was there a fault with your original ring and pinion gears that didn't allow you to center the wear pattern? My gauge seems to fit snug and be giving me an accurate reading, so not sure what is going on?

If anyone has any advice, it would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Sean

Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:50 pm

If you haven't already, I would restart by re-setting the zero lash with the side bearings, add the pre-load and go from there. Remember - no shims when you set the side bearings zero lash. I had some issues too the first time, and I just looked at as many videos and write ups as possible and eventually got it set.
As I remember, the pinion depth tool was not as precise as I thought it should be. Also, have you studied the FSM for setting up your trans? There was some good info in there too.
Paul

Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:09 pm

Hi air-ride. Franklinstower brings up an important point regarding the pinion-depth tool... it is to be used as a "ball-park" guide and offers a reasonable enough starting point. Realize that you will be assembling/re-assembling your gearbox many times in this process (and it will likely be very frustrating, as was my case). Also, I do not recall doing a zero-lash setting at any point in my setup as this would be far too tight (perhaps Franklinstower can elaborate on this). Maybe the reference is to adjust the differential lash to the zero point, then back off to the target lash, and re-assess the smear pattern to see exactly where you are right now. I would definitely suggest that and from there gauge whether or not you need +/- movement of the pinion shaft. The Factory Service Manual (FSM) suggestion here is key.

The replacement that Todd sent was Version 2 pinion shaft (High Performance 2WD specific) which didn't use the hollow shaft style that was required for the AWD configuration. The second V2 patterns showed a much better mesh than the initial sequence you'd referenced.

Could you post up what your patterns look like? Perhaps we can collectively suggest your next steps by gauging where you are now (so that you don't have to split the gearbox too many times).

Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:24 am

carltron wrote: Hi air-ride. Franklinstower brings up an important point regarding the pinion-depth tool... it is to be used as a "ball-park" guide and offers a reasonable enough starting point. Also, I do not recall doing a zero-lash setting at any point in my setup as this would be far too tight (perhaps Franklinstower can elaborate on this).

Sorry if I added confusion. It had been while since I messed with mine. I also said something in error regarding setting the side clearance with no shims. I wrote that wrong. I meant to say take the initial pinion depth with no shims to get the correct shim thickness required. FYI - I found it difficult to buy different shim thicknesses. The dealer said I was buying the last of them on the west coast. When you reassemble with the shims in place and are working on setting the side clearance. Start by setting zero lash, Then move the ring gear out three notches, add the bearing preload. Todd does a decent enough explanation in one of his assembly videos.

I think I had my gear box together and apart at least 6 or 7 times until I had it where I wanted.

My final mesh pattern was accomplished by using about 1/2 of the shim thickness the pinion depth tool told me I needed.

Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:00 pm

Thanks for responding Franklinstower and carltron!

I have done a lot of research and tried many variations setting this up, but I will take your advice and start over. I will try to get back in the shop today and take some good photos for my starting point and see what you guys recommend.

BTW Paul, I see you are also in PNW and I was able to order shims from Carter Subaru. It only took a few days for them to get them. I know your tranny is already set up but thought I would mention it if any one else looking to purchase shims.

Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:57 pm

I got a chance to play with this today and here are some pics. I started with the .5mm pinion shim which zeroed it out on the gauge setting. The pics below are with no backlash.

I then backed the the cup out 3 notches and turned the other in 3 plus 1/2 notch for preload and got this.

Next I removed the .5mm shim and replaced with .2mm to move the pinion in. I only took pics with the backlash set at three notches out after initially adjusting for zero backlash.

As this seemed to be moving the wear pattern in toward the center, I tried one more time with no shims and 3 notches out backlash.

The wear pattern seems to be getting better as I move the pinion in but still doesn't appear to be centered enough. It seems I need to move the pinion further in but I have run out of room as I am at zero shims.

I think carltron, you ran into the same issue with your original ring and pinion set, did you ever get it set up correctly? What do you guys think?

Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:46 am

I think there's no better venue than Samba for Subarugears to walk you through their proper set-up procedure ..

Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:13 am

Quote: I then backed the the cup out 3 notches and turned the other in 3 plus 1/2 notch for preload and got this.

I have no experience setting Subaru transaxles up, but as a rule, you set bearing preload prior to setting backlash. With preload set, you would rotate the adjusting collars equal amounts to maintain preload as you fine tune backlash.

Are you using all new bearings?

Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:09 am

I followed the procedure shown in an assembly video posted on the Subarugears website. They set it at zero backlash then backed it out 3 notches which gives the .15mm backlash (.05 for each notch turn). Then they tightened up the other side the same turns and added the additional 1/2 notch turn for preload.

I also have a dial gauge and tool I made simular to the one Subarugears now provides, to further check if the backlash is spot on. I haven't done it yet as it should be close, and it seems my problem is getting the pinion set to the proper depth first.

The transmission I bought was supposed to have less than 1000 miles on it so I assume the bearings are still good, and they look good.

Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:54 pm

BTW...here is what's waiting for it when I am confident I set it up correct.

All resealed and ready to vroom! Gettin anxious

Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:18 pm

Backlash and preload values are different for used bearings. Bentley notes somewhere that 30 miles is the bed in period for bearing preload for new bearings. I would not trust notches of a ring count for setting backlash. I would be using a dial indicator for measuring backlash, not some predetermined rule of thumb.

Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:07 am

Old thread I know, but I am a bit confused about the specifics of the 'axle pounding the diff' issue. I am about to install a couple 20.5" axles into my 2WD with Subarugears setup. With axles (both Chinese and OEM) in hand, the CV joint is able to extend enough to contact the stub on the transmission. Is this normal? The trans side cup is only about 3/8" deep, and the CV can extend a good 3/4" Is it not a problem as long as the axle cannot be 'jammed' between the hub and trans?

My Chinese axles also have no stop/circlip on the boot side of the CV. Is there a chance that the CV eventually walks further and further to the boot side on the axle, thus making the axle protrude further and make contact with the trans stubs?

Here's a drawing of what my axle looks like, with splines extending on the boot side, with no circlip there. Do I need to have a ring machined?

Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:03 am

kewilso3 wrote: Old thread I know, but I am a bit confused about the specifics of the 'axle pounding the diff' issue. I am about to install a couple 20.5" axles into my 2WD with Subarugears setup. With axles (both Chinese and OEM) in hand, the CV joint is able to extend enough to contact the stub on the transmission. Is this normal? The trans side cup is only about 3/8" deep, and the CV can extend a good 3/4" Is it not a problem as long as the axle cannot be 'jammed' between the hub and trans?

My Chinese axles also have no stop/circlip on the boot side of the CV. Is there a chance that the CV eventually walks further and further to the boot side on the axle, thus making the axle protrude further and make contact with the trans stubs?

Here's a drawing of what my axle looks like, with splines extending on the boot side, with no circlip there. Do I need to have a ring machined?

If i remember correctly, one side needs a auto trans axel. The smallest axel for a vanagon. I think the passenger side.

Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:39 am

You need axles that have the internal circlip to stop the axle from over extending. Many aftermarket axles don't hand the inboard circlip as shown in this picture on the left.

20.5" left side auto axles

Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:42 am

Franklinstower wrote: You need axles that have the internal circlip to stop the axle from over extending. Many aftermarket axles don't hand the inboard circlip as shown in this picture on the left.

20.5" left side auto axles

Is that really a circlip? I thought it was a concave spring washer and was used on bay axles but not Vanagon axles.

Or is this specific to automatic axles?

Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:46 am

dobryan wrote:

Is that really a circlip? I thought it was a concave spring washer and was used on bay axles but not Vanagon axles.

Or is this specific to automatic axles?

Not sure. I pulled that picture from the gallery. Either way, according to SubaruGears, he states the ring gear damage people were seeing is from using axles that don't have an internal stop that prevents the axle from walking into the hub flange. Therefore, the axle needs some type stop on the inboard side to keep it from walking into the hub on full compression.

Now that I think about it, I think that is BS. Because the Axle also has the circlip on the outboard wheel side. The would prevent the axle from moving inboard? (Although It is possible between the two CV's the axle could move a substantial amount - the thickness of two CV's)

I think Todd said the Empi Axles (as far as aftermarket) do have the inboard retainer.

You know how you solve this issue? A modified stock Subaru axle mated to a vanagon Axle/CV!

How much simpler can it be? If you can cut and shorten drive shafts, I don't see why you couldn't do the same to an axle shaft?

Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:19 am

Ok that's the information I have been reading, it just doesn't make all that much sense to me either. Would it be stupid to weld a couple spots on the splines or should I go through the trouble of disassembly and finding a machine shop for a circlip? Likely more expensive than finding new OEM axles.

It seems unlikely that the axle would move through the CV on the splines, as any load forcing it what direction should be taken up by the CV, no?

If the CV is sticking enough to apply that much force along the splines, isn't the CV going to contact the stub on the trans anyway? It's within the range of motion.

The axle length never 'grows' and the CVs should always work to center themselves. If the axles are 'stretched' when initially installed, the CVs trying to center themselves would always put pressure towards the circlips on the outboard ends.