TheSamba.com :: View topic - BRM, which to choose

Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:59 am

Hi, didn't get any answers in the general forum, will try here instead...

I'm a bit confused. I'm looking to buy BRM wheels. Seems to be two manufacturers; Flat4 and MWS(midland wheels).

What I have found is that the sizes are as follows:

Flat4:
5" ET-12 or 6,5" ET-??

MWS:
4,5" ET-?? or 5,5" ET-12

the 5,5" MWS and 5" Flat4 is said to have same ET/offset so wheel clearence should not differ (if same tire size is used) .

Question is about QUALITY of wheels - price seems to be almost the same (MWS a little lower priced for me here in Europe due to cheaper shipping - about 70$ diffecence for a set of four so I will still choose best quality).

Some threads say that Flat4 is superior, while others say early MWS was bad but that they now are better than Flat4.

The MWS has more authentic caps, but they're said to be interchangable and are only about 4$ a piece so it won't matter... Think I will need the deeper cap anyway as I have the 1960-drums which are said to not fit the 'original' depth caps.

I have seen pictures of the MWS 4,5" and it does not look nice as it is to 'shallow' so I don't want that one. I'd like to use it on a 1960 ghia without any modifications. So I'll guess that I will look for the 5" or 5,5" whichever is the best quality.

Anyone that can provide help in my decision...

Thanks /Johan

Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:08 am

Has anyone seen the 4.5" BRM? I've seen them listed on the CIP website, but they are "out of stock". Were they ever "in stock"?? I want a pair!

Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:29 am

On the picture from CIP1 you can see that the spokes are almost at the edge of the rim. I was also thinking of these wheels, but got an answer in another thread from someone that had seen them that they looked strange due to the spokes beeing so far out. I called MWS to ask about a better picture, but I never got one. He said on the phone though, that the rim was only modified on the outer side (as picture is indicating). I have not been able to find information about the offset / ET of the rim. It should be about ET-25 (as 1/2 inch is about 13mm and that is added to the original ET-12) so it will be closer to the original 4" wheel which I think have an offset of about ET-32.

Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:47 am

On the other tread it was said that finnish was smoother on MWS vs. Flat4 wheels, but Flat4 is more original look. Seems like a matter of tase then, which wheel to choose... Will try to spot some wheels then. The Flat4 is not sold here in sweden as I know of...

About the names... From what I understand the Midland Wheels repros are called 'speedwells' by some. If they bought the original name I don't know. It's manufactured by MWS ( www.midlandwheelsshop.com ) and are aluminum repros like the flat4 wheel. The Flat4 is said to have the original mag-dimensions - the MWS is 1/2 inch wider.

Look at these links for more info i found searching the net about BRM's:
http://www.vwtrendsweb.com/features/0107vwt_question/
http://hem.passagen.se/tobiasax/brm.htm
http://www.terovirta.com (go to wheel guide)
http://www.terovirta.com/volks/1997_UKTrip.html

Also found another story about the wheels in a Swedish forum. This story was that the wheels were made by BRM for formula cars which had the same bolt pattern as VW and it was not intended for VW's at all in the first place. Why would a non-performance car get formula class wheels? BRM was the original manufacturer of the wheels, which were made in the UK by Owens Foundry... Speedwell was the UK reseller of BRM and other performance products. Both EMPI and Speedwell sold the original BRM wheels in the 60:th. Speedwell sold EMPI products in the U.K. and vice versa.

So 'speedwells', 'EMPI' or 'BRM's' should be the 'original' magnesium wheel that was discontinued in the late 1960:th. This original wheel has not got safety beeds, will probably cost more that the rest of the car and it is said that the magnesium will (apart from needing to be polished every week) start to crack so it is not reccomended to use them as dayly driver wheels. For Flat4 or MWS or whatever to call the copies, let's call them UK or japanese...

Whichever story is true, I'd like a repro set of BRM's. Either the jap or the UK version - both are copies, just wondering which to choose.
_________________
Johan, Sweden

Wed Mar 17, 2004 7:47 pm

The Midland BRM's are much nicer looking than the Flat 4's - just my opinion. They are much smoother and glossier. The Flat 4's are rough finished in the spokes and have a duller finsh. The Midland center caps also say Speedwell compared to just Flat 4 on the Japanese versions.
From what I know, the 4.5 BRM's were a small batch special production run for a company in Europe. There were a few left over that CIP bought and sold out quickly.

Wed Mar 17, 2004 7:54 pm

brm's as a race wheel, hard to believe because they weigh a ton.

Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:01 pm

[email protected] wrote: brm's as a race wheel, hard to believe because they weigh a ton.
He's talking about the original magnesium BRMs which weigh in around 7-8 lbs. This is lighter than any cast wheel you will ever find to fit a VW.

Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:26 am

ok ..I was wondering..cleared up for me, I wish they still made magnesium wheels today for the vw. I know that magnesium wheels for my BMW cost a fortune.

Thu Mar 18, 2004 7:55 am

go for the MWS wheels, they may be cheaper slightly but there still good quality, and they shud look god on ur car :D + if u live in the UK? you shud gt them quicker.

Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:33 am

Guess that's why Flat4 lowered ther prices, people will go for the UK wheel cause it is cheaper and smoother finish... What i read (and can be seen at picures) the original wheen was NOT smooth, so jap f4 wheel is looking more like original wheel. If that is better or not I don't know...

The 'gasburners' are mag wheels that is not that old and still will be good for dayly drivers - expensive (but not as the original BRM) but has the porsche stud pattern. See www.gasburners.net - they say that the replika aluminum wheel weights the double - probably the same with the BRM...

Sat Mar 20, 2004 10:21 am

Hi, I have had a set of each. I have just bought a set of flat 4 which I have polished and am right now painting ( i hope it looks ok ). The MWS look similar but they have a less authentic rim. The flat 4 have a rougher finish and just look more solid and orignial. However both have machne marks onthe polished rim and need polishing to look genuine. Both are too shiney.

If I did it over again, I would buy MWS and spend the saving on havig them polished and painted in a dull shade.

The MWS caps are better and dont really fit the flat 4 as well ( buy spares you might need them! )

Good luck.

Sun Mar 21, 2004 8:36 am

Hi H!

Great to get a comparison like that! Did you buy the 'raw' MWS, heard they'd look more authentic...

So, if You've had a set of each, ARE there any differance in offset?

Thinking of the Flat4 anyway, as they will allow me to run 145 in front and this would save me wheel arch clearance... 145 on 5,5" i think won't look good... I'm thinking of 165 in the rear - then 5,5" is a bit wide also...

Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:48 pm

Hi! No the MWS came on another car and looked a bit ratty. The Flat 4 I have bought to replace some Ercos. The Flat 4 just feel better quality up close. But I am not an expert and to be honest I dont think any one can tell the difference!! The smaller rim up front you suggested will look great! They also make wider rims for the back. 6" I think. I have used these with 205/70 tires or 6" slicks.

let me know how you get on what ever you decide!
Have fun

H

Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:51 pm

Hi! No the MWS came on another car and looked a bit ratty. I dont know about the off set as I had them on differnet cars at different times. I had the MWS under stock arches with a standard beam with 145 tires without any issues at all. This wasnt a 4.5 rim it ws whatever their standard rim was. So you should have acres fo room on a 4.5.

The Flat 4 I have bought to replace some Ercos. The Flat 4 just feel better quality up close. But I am not an expert and to be honest I dont think any one can tell the difference!!

The smaller rim up front you suggested will look great! They also make wider rims for the back. 6" I think. I have used these with 205/70 tires or 6" slicks.

let me know how you get on what ever you decide!
Have fun

H

Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:00 am

i have put 4.5 mws wheels on the front with 125/80/15 tyres and on the rear 6.5 flat 4 wheels on the rear. As is said the back wheels (flat 4 ) are slightly rough finish but are not really that noticable. You can always get either wheel powder coated if you are that bothered about the finish but you can hardly tell. This was the only way to get this wheel combination

Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:37 am

my 65 bus/camper has 5x15 flat4(1997) my 60 euro ragtop has front 5x15 and 6.5x15 rear..they are flat 4..i did not like the mws wheels.

Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:52 am

I've got a set of the Flat 4 BRMs for my '51. I bought them because they are supposed to look more like the original ones than the MWS. What I paid second hand for the Flat 4's would have got a brand new set of MWS! I've also heard some not so great things about MWS copying wheels from another manufacturer by just using their rejected moulds, so I wouldn't buy from them on principle! :shock:

Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:21 am

Neil Davies wrote: I've got a set of the Flat 4 BRMs for my '51. I bought them because they are supposed to look more like the original ones than the MWS. What I paid second hand for the Flat 4's would have got a brand new set of MWS! I've also heard some not so great things about MWS copying wheels from another manufacturer by just using their rejected moulds, so I wouldn't buy from them on principle! :shock:

I agree................that kinda thing is not right.

Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:54 am

The laquer on MWS wheels in the UK is reknowned for cracking and peeling, I've seen this on at least three of my mates cars over here.

Alex.

Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:53 pm

mws NOOOOOO
i have seen both had them in my hands
do your self a favor and look on vzi (volkszone) website
my view flat 4 at least thay have put somthing back into the vw community with products ect..
if you get the mws wheels the gloss will peel