TheSamba.com :: View topic - Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild

Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:03 am

kawfee wrote: Was the new one made in Brazil? I just bought one and it looks closer to the box on the right (brown cardboard).

Really hard to know where its actually made....could be a repackage...and is most likely a collection of parts made all over TRW's world wide network.

The bar code does list 789 as the country code which is Brazil. Ray

Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:18 am

raygreenwood wrote: kawfee wrote: Was the new one made in Brazil? I just bought one and it looks closer to the box on the right (brown cardboard).

Really hard to know where its actually made....could be a repackage...and is most likely a collection of parts made all over TRW's world wide network.

The bar code does list 789 as the country code which is Brazil. Ray

Excellent question, I should have included that in the original post. Both the old box and the new box have the text "Made In Brazil". But, as Ray points out, it is a collection of parts. And, any individual component could be sourced from multiple subcontractors. So there could be variance in quality between subcontractors.

Even the original VW units were manufactured by either different vendors, or by different factory's. There are clear differences in the housings between the units marked "+GF+" and the units marked "W&E"

Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:29 pm

Bad Roller Shaft & Lower Bushing:

If upon teardown, your roller shaft and lower bushing look like this:

Well...then they are bad.

Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:26 am

OKType3Tim wrote: Bad Roller Shaft & Lower Bushing:

If upon teardown, your roller shaft and lower bushing look like this:

:shock: Impressive

Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:26 pm

Was directed to this thread by Jay Salser, while purchasing a gasket for rebuild of the steering box on my '71 standard Beetle. Have since been following w/ great interest -- very instructive & informative!

One point w/ regard to the lubrication for the steering box -- The Bentley shop manual calls for "Fill the gearbox with about 160 cc (5.4 oz.) of liquid transmission grease.", during reassembly.

I believe that "liquid transmission grease" essentially refers to NLGI grade 00 consistency of grease, which is about as soft as it can get, before becoming purely liquid oil (i.e. NLGI grade 000). In comparison, I think that the grease commonly used in grease guns and/or for wheel bearings is usually NLGI grade 2 consistency, which is of course a lot firmer / thicker.

I'm planning to give "Stens 00 Grease" a try for my rebuild. Will let everybody know how this works out...

Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:24 pm

A comment on bearing wear:

I've now had the opportunity/experience to tear down quite a number of steering boxes. In various discussions (online and face-to-face) there is a thought that inspection of the balls in the race, and the surfaces of the races is sufficient. If there are no flat spots, pits, everything is shiny-->> Then everything must be fine. Reuse the existing bearings.

But!

In this picture, all of the bearings on the right side, bound together on the tie wrap loops have a particular wear indication that you should look out for. The vast majority of the units I have torn down have the bearings worn out in the manner I'll describe below.

Here is a typical example, a fairly nice looking bearing:

But note the groove in the cage pointed out by the yellow arrows:

I kept finding this groove in the bearing cage, and realized that it caused by the cage wearing on the edge of the race (highlighted in yellow):

Another indication is that when the bearing is placed in the race, you can not clearly see the individual ball bearings showing between the cage and the race, since they are worn down to the point that the cage can come in contact with the race:

Here is a shot of a new bearing sitting on the end of the worm shaft. You can clearly see that the individual ball bearings are spaced between the outer race, and the inner worm shaft race.

As always, comments and observations welcome.

Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:16 pm

baldessariclan wrote: Was directed to this thread by Jay Salser, while purchasing a gasket for rebuild of the steering box on my '71 standard Beetle. Have since been following w/ great interest -- very instructive & informative!

One point w/ regard to the lubrication for the steering box -- The Bentley shop manual calls for "Fill the gearbox with about 160 cc (5.4 oz.) of liquid transmission grease.", during reassembly.

I believe that "liquid transmission grease" essentially refers to NLGI grade 00 consistency of grease, which is about as soft as it can get, before becoming purely liquid oil (i.e. NLGI grade 000). In comparison, I think that the grease commonly used in grease guns and/or for wheel bearings is usually NLGI grade 2 consistency, which is of course a lot firmer / thicker.

I'm planning to give "Stens 00 Grease" a try for my rebuild. Will let everybody know how this works out...

By the way...sorry I should have mentioned this...thank you for yet another source for special lubes for these gear boxes.

I found out quite a while ago that you are correct. At least on my type 4 steering gearboxes...the European manuals make pains to differentiate between the terms "gear oil" and "gear grease".

The American manuals like Chiltons do not differentiate. A lot of people over the eons writing articles did not differentiate...so over the years I think most people just got in the habit of calling it gear oil and using that.

While gear oil certainly satisfies the EP requirements......to steal a quote from an antique care rebuild site....."lubricating a steering gearbox is easy....keeping the lubricant in the box is not".

From my perspective....as I have mentioned before...with the rarity of quality steering boxes at this point in time...even if the factory DID use 90 weight gear oil....I would use something better that stays in the box longer.

Nothing would be worse going forward...since steering gear box leaks are "silent"....to one day wake up and find your irreplaceable steering gearbox is dead. Ray

Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:21 pm

OKType3Tim wrote: A comment on bearing wear:

I've now had the opportunity/experience to tear down quite a number of steering boxes. In various discussions (online and face-to-face) there is a thought that inspection of the balls in the race, and the surfaces of the races is sufficient. If there are no flat spots, pits, everything is shiny-->> Then everything must be fine. Reuse the existing bearings.

But!

In this picture, all of the bearings on the right side, bound together on the tie wrap loops have a particular wear indication that you should look out for. The vast majority of the units I have torn down have the bearings worn out in the manner I'll describe below.

Here is a typical example, a fairly nice looking bearing:

But note the groove in the cage pointed out by the yellow arrows:

I kept finding this groove in the bearing cage, and realized that it caused by the cage wearing on the edge of the race (highlighted in yellow):

Another indication is that when the bearing is placed in the race, you can not clearly see the individual ball bearings showing between the cage and the race, since they are worn down to the point that the cage can come in contact with the race:

Here is a shot of a new bearing sitting on the end of the worm shaft. You can clearly see that the individual ball bearings are spaced between the outer race, and the inner worm shaft race.

As always, comments and observations welcome.

Yes sir!...what you found...is that the ball spacer cage wore...not the bearings or the race itself. It allows the balls to shift backward and the race to shift forward.

While the cage is usually designed to be softer than the ball so it does not crater a ball.....the delrin races...do not wear like this....which is one of the plus items of the plastic ball spacer if you can get good quality (proper material) plastic ball spacer cages. :wink:

But mostly....do you think this excessive wear was due to excessive preload setting?...meaning the owner tweaking the box to take up slack?....or was it lack of lube...or just high miles and within the design?

Ray

Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:32 pm

Regarding Corn Head Grease, these pictures show the details:

NLGI "0" grade. $4.04 per tube at my local John Deere dealer.

Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:40 pm

OKType3Tim wrote:

But note the groove in the cage pointed out by the yellow arrows:

Interesting! I checked the bearings of my original box and found that one of the bearings has the wear pattern shown above while the other does not. Unfortunately I did not keep track of which bearing came from which position on the worm so I don't know where in the box it was originally installed.

Good catch; I had not noticed that wear pattern until you pointed it out above.

Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:23 pm

raygreenwood wrote:
Yes sir!...what you found...is that the ball spacer cage wore...not the bearings or the race itself. It allows the balls to shift backward and the race to shift forward.

While the cage is usually designed to be softer than the ball so it does not crater a ball.....the delrin races...do not wear like this....which is one of the plus items of the plastic ball spacer if you can get good quality (proper material) plastic ball spacer cages. :wink:

But mostly....do you think this excessive wear was due to excessive preload setting?...meaning the owner tweaking the box to take up slack?....or was it lack of lube...or just high miles and within the design?

Ray

The balls shown in the picture above, and balls in new FAG bearings and balls in new TRW bearings are all consistently .194 inches in diameter (measured with the same set of calipers at the same time, at the same temperature). So, I have to agree, This particular bearing, the balls didn't wear.

But this one :shock: :

That wasn't working so good!

And, the units that have cage wear are "notchy", "draggy". They do not turn smoothly when they arrive.

Regarding the wear:

Everything I have torn down is improperly lubricated. Either not enough, or the wrong consistency, or water infiltration, or dirt and sand infiltration. (Or BURNT, more on that in an upcoming post.) Thus, if your steering box starts showing leakage; it needs to be addressed immediately. Shoving more lubricant (of the wrong type) through the box isn't going to stave off the wear. And if grease can leak out, water can penetrate in. I have many examples of low lubrication and only a short amount of driving time that created flat spotted worms and rollers:

Many boxes have too much preload on the worm shaft. Folks, 1-2 INCH-pounds is hardly any load at all! From the Type 3 Bentley for adjusting the Worm Adjuster (the big adjuster), "Turn the worm spindle from lock to lock. There should be no tight spots. Note-If there are tight spots, the adjuster has been advanced too far and must be returned to a slightly looser position."

All the boxes have way to much adjustment on the roller adjustment screw. This puts much pressure on the needle bearing on the inside of the roller. And puts a lot of side load on the worm shaft bearings. Is it possible that the side load is driving the cage into the race?? I'll have to find a way to see if that is possible. (without destroying a new bearing.)

Regarding the roller shaft adjustment (the small screw on the top): From both the Bentley and the "Notes on Practical Work", "If no parts are replaced: 5 +2 degrees of play range". So, 5 to 7 degrees of turn, each direction, is all the range through which the steering box should exhibit "no play" at the drop arm. That is roughly 45+ degrees of turn, each direction, of the steering wheel.

It is incorrect to set the "no-play" range to be lock-to-lock!

So to summarize the answer, I think the steering boxes would last longer, if any leakage is promptly addressed. New seals, new gasket, with the grease being replaced with the correct type.
...
Additionally, there are several potential sources of steering wheel play throughout the front end steering components. Correctly diagnosing where the play is coming from is necessary. Prematurely jumping to the conclusion that the adjuster screw on the steering box needs to be tightened will just make the situation worse, quickly. (In my opinion.)

Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:01 pm

Regarding Powder Coating a steering box:

This question came up and about the same time I was given the opportunity to tear down a TRW unit that had been powder coated. The TRW unit was reported to have never operated or driven properly. After the TRW unit was installed the owner felt that he was always "fighting the car" to keep it headed where he wanted it to go. The original VW steering box was replaced as part of a restoration effort. Along with many other power coated front end components; the steering box was also powder coated.

Now, they didn't disassemble the unit and powder coat the individual steering box components. They just wiped it down, shot it with powder and put it in the oven. My understanding of the process is that an oven temperature of about 400 degrees F is where the powder cures to form a polymer structure.

The car had been driven about 1700 miles when the TRW unit was sent to me. When I opened up the unit, I was greeted with a powerful stench of burnt grease:

Along with a major loss of grease volume:

And bearings that fell out of their cage:

There was evidence of water contamination. During the clean up process I took this picture of the lower seal before cleaning to show the water and grit that had collected on the back side of the seal.

I cleaned up all the parts and then began the postmortem. The bearings:

With only 1700 miles the roller side washer play was far beyond the spec. Actually the worst I've seen that didn't also involve needle bearing failure.

The lower roller shaft and lower housing bushing were trashed.

The worm shaft was worn with severe striations. (This should be smooth and shiny.)

The cover bearing surface was also showing signs of wear.

So....Don't powder coat your steering box.

Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:03 pm

Totally agree on immediate fixing of the lubrication issue when you see a leak. You have to realize that if oil is seeping from the seals.....you have a significant gap between shaft and seal..... because these boxes are NOT pressurized. So oil runs out from gravity and temperature change alone.
And.....if that is happening......moisture laden air goes into the box through those same seal gaps.
This is not a huge issue in areas of very stable temps or low humidity (central southwest).....but in four seasons states.....you can have cool humid mornings and humid warm afternoons the same day....and quick cool downs in the evenings. That humid air condenses moisture droplets into the gear box.....and people say that has to be miniscule.

My response to that is......"So....how often did you say you change your steering gearbox oil again?"......yeah.....multiply that "miniscule" by a few hundred days over 15 years.....and you have a recipe for corrosion.

I went round and round with people on a similar issue a while back. In four seasons hunid areas.....transmissions sitting on shelves in uncontrolled sheds but are otherwise out of the weather. A decade later I pull the inspection plate......and you get a few ounces of water out with the oil....rust on the gears and a corrosion line on the mag case. The cases are vented. Air moves in and out.

For those same reasons.....I have moved to filling my irreplaceable steering gearboxes.....air void free except for an expansion bubble......with a gear "grease".

By the way......the perfect coating for the case of your steering gearbox......I may be able to do one for you in the next two months.......is nickel plate. I will be doing some electroless nickel plating soon.

Nickel is a total anti corrosion coating and its hard.

While zinc with a chromate passivation layer is the PERFECT "sacrificial" anode anti-corrosion plating......its not good for items like a steering gearbox or the inside of a brake master cylinder..... BECAUSE its designed to oxidize. The white rust residue from zinc is a contaminant for the oil.

The perfect mix.....is zinc-nickel. It still has the sacrifical anode protection of zinc.....meaning the zinc is designed to corrode so that the metal underneath does not corrode. The addition of nickel gives the zinc a rust proof alloy so that the zinc does not begin its sacrifical corrosion for eons.

The problem is that Zinc-nickel is one of the most complex electroplating reactions to control. Its not a do it yourself thing with any great success.

However I will be plating straight electroless nickel/nickel cobalt.

Nickel will never rust.....as long as you do not scratch through it to the base metal. Then the base metal will rust at the scratch. Its also pretty silver and can be vibratory polished if you want that "near chrome" look.

I am close to also rebuilding one of my type 4 steering boxes. I have one finished that is baked epoxy.....but it would be superb to put .00075" of nickel plate on it.

Nickel plate would be a super preservative for the cast iron case of steering boxes you want to keep around for eons. Ray

Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:08 pm

\:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/

Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:14 pm

Some progress on tooling today. The Bentley calls out the use of VW tool 649 (Local Manufacture) to protect the large seal when installing the roller shaft. A machinist friend of mine produced the part to the drawing spec. He had the skill and equipment to produce the tapered component; and access to some scrap aluminum. However, the original drawing is dated April 19, 1961; and the current double lip seals are of better/different construction than what was used in 1961. Or I presume they are different because the tool would not fit into the current seals.

So today I finished up the tool by tweaking the diameters:

And tweaked the inside diameter to make sure it would operate smoothly:

Finished tool:

In operation sequence (note I have the housing over on its side so to more easily take pictures and show the operation):

Looking down the inside of the housing into the tool.

Inserting roller shaft.

Remove the tool leaving the lips of the seal undamaged by any sharp edges on the roller shaft:

Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:31 pm

In addition to standard wrenches and sockets, the Steering Box Toolkit looks like this:

Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:33 pm

Damn nice work.

I am juwt about to have to have some tapered mandrels very sikilar to that made.....cor installing U cups on brake master cylinders.

If I could just buy them I would. Ray

Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:29 am

Very nice write up but would you believe this thread is not widely known outside type 3 forum ? Needs to be a sticky or maybe part of a larger new forum dedicated to rebuilding original components as an alternative to the poor quality aftermarket parts currently available. Carbs,distributors,fuel pumps,generators, electrical items?

Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:10 am

Zundfolge1432 wrote: ......Needs to be a sticky or maybe part of a larger new forum dedicated to rebuilding original components as an alternative to the poor quality aftermarket parts currently available. Carbs,distributors,fuel pumps,generators, electrical items?

Along that line:
================
The Ghia forum has a sticky named, "Follow the best "How to" threads here - Ghia FAQ"

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=433752

which lists this thread along with many other topics.
================
The Bay Window form has a mention of this thread along with a discussion on different greases for use in steering boxes. Here:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8416129&highlight=#8416129

================
In the Split Bus forum there are many mentions of Corn Head Grease. I quickly found some from 2012.

Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:10 pm

Going to a "gear grease" in the steering box.....is not just a remedy against leaks. Its a performance improvement and its a preservation action.

1. It keeps you from ACCIDENTALLY (read that as owner negligence) running out of lube and detsroying an unobtanium part.

2. It does a better job of lubricating....when its properly applied....meaning filled "void free"

3. It largely prevents detsructive long term corrosion because it prevents trapped vapor and condensation.

4. It does not have the issue of sulphide PH change that gear oils do.....which prevents corrosion on yellow metal bushing surfaces. The newer gear greases and synthetics have this benefit.

When I tear down another type 4 box soon....I will take s picture of the worm nut. They come out ELECTRIC GREEN. They were purposely copper plated at the factory.

The copper plating acts as a sacrificial anode of sorts.....to react with the acid level in the gear oil as it rises with age and water absorption....so that it does not attack the unplated steel parts and bearings inside. Ray