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Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:22 am

Casey, thank you for taking the time to explain all of that. Having been in the autobody industry as mainly a painter for 20+ years, I would like to let everyone who is reading that that Casey is speaking the straight truth here. What he is talking about is exactly how it is in most body shops in most modern cities these days. I have been out of that industry for a number of years but I try to keep up with the latest changes just in case I ever have to get back into it. I'm in 100% agreement with everything that he mentioned. Very well said!

Oh, and uh, I like your Vans shirt in the reflection of your van. Cool!

Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:37 pm

casey79westfalia wrote:

Back on topic. What color is the original poster planning to use?

Indeed! I am considering a two tone look. (Yes, that will add cost) But 2 ideas. One is to use a red similar to yours Casey with a silver for the area around the windows and around the rear engine vents. The other idea is a dark blue with the same silver. Also want to do the bed liner on the lower quarters. I'm still a couple months out from starting body work/paint so there's plenty of time to research/get flamed.

Speaking of, here is what I'm starting with. These are pics from the sellers ad. We just closed the deal and I'll be picking it up soon.

In all her glory, 86 Syncro GL Camper conversion. There's quite a bit of mickey mousing to sort through but overall, the camper conversion was done pretty well.

Most of the body is in really good shape considering. These are all the areas that will need the most attention.

Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:42 pm

Not to be disrespectful or discouraging but brace yourself for the higher cost, estimates if PROPER body repair is part of the painting price.

You have some serious Rust Belt type rust on that unit.

I would also be very wary of a non rust belt shops repair techniques. You want bad metal cut out and new metal welded in for your repairs.
Not a "rust treating" chemical dip, a smear of bondo and a coat of paint.

Non rust area shops aren't always "savvy" about rust abatement for they quite simply don't get much of it.

It looks like it is wearing a coat of primer right now?

If so, any shop putting out quality work will remove it because if poorly applied it will jeapordize their final paint layer.
Not only the work of removal will cost money but what areas of concern the removal of the primer exposes. This could be significant.

Proceed cautiously here.........

Dave

Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:50 pm

Dave is right on the money here.
ALL of that primer should, must be taken down to whatever is under it.

If not, you are just throwing your money away.

Color change?
More bucks.

Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:54 pm

I wonder what lurks under that nicely applied primer?????

Scary unknowns me thinks.

Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:06 pm

bluebus86 wrote: I wonder what lurks under that nicely applied primer?????

Scary unknowns me thinks.

Don't let the primer fool you. It looks like shit. There's nothing nice about it. But yes, hopefully it's only hiding horrible colors and precious paint fiascos.

The van spent a few years being lived in traveling the states and then it spent a year or so in Hawaii before it ended up in Los Angeles. The only really bad rust is the small spots by the pop top hinges. I'm nervous to pull out the windshield for sure. There's a ton of work to be done but it's a solid foundation and I'm super excited to get started and see what I can do with it. I wonder if I can convince Casey to send me some "how to" videos? :wink:

Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:15 pm

Convince yourself otherwise.

With that history........

I'd wager money that rust lurks under many of those window seals, in the seam behind the drivers door, maybe the seat belt area and entry step too.

The crash beam seam at the front bumper, in and out, and I'd additionally wager 2/3rds of the seams are rusty.

Open the engine cover, look at the firewall area, look high up on it near the gasket...... Rusty isn't it? Look on the transmission side of the firewall......

Look in the areas behind the tail lights......

I'd go on, but why depress you?

Dave

Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:21 pm

bosco53 wrote: bluebus86 wrote: I wonder what lurks under that nicely applied primer?????

Scary unknowns me thinks.

Don't let the primer fool you. It looks like shit. There's nothing nice about it. But yes, hopefully it's only hiding horrible colors and precious paint fiascos.

The van spent a few years being lived in traveling the states and then it spent a year or so in Hawaii before it ended up in Los Angeles. The only really bad rust is the small spots by the pop top hinges. I'm nervous to pull out the windshield for sure. There's a ton of work to be done but it's a solid foundation and I'm super excited to get started and see what I can do with it. I wonder if I can convince Casey to send me some "how to" videos? :wink:

If your convinced the windshield rust is not really bad, I guess it isn't.

Not to discourage you or knock your ride, it could be made nice, just don't underestimate what you have to deal with, been there done that.

Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:38 pm

bosco53 wrote:

It may be a trick of the light but it appears to me that several seams are missing. If so, you will want to explore below the surface. Good luck.

For reference, this photo shows the factory seams:

Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:52 pm

Ahwahnee wrote: bosco53 wrote:

It may be a trick of the light but it appears to me that several seams are missing. If so, you will want to explore below the surface. Good luck.

For reference, this photo shows the factory seams:

Out of sight, out of mind. We don't need not stinking seams, Cover them up!

Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:54 pm

Most of the shops I spoke to or visited did not want to hear restoration. It s a dirty word to them, literally and figuratively. The paradigm with modern auto body shops is plastic replacement and panel replacement. If they are even willing to do it they do not like someone else doing the bodywork, and will estimate higher because if someone else did it, it was done wrong. You can save by pulling windows, handles, lenses and wipers. Most are happy to let you do grunt work. INSIST ON A CONTRACT!!! Make sure what you are expecting is spelled out in the contract, make sure there is a specified time limit to do the work and the exact price is spelled out. Make sure the warranty is spelled out clearly. You can download a contract from a Google search and tweak it. I would add a clause to allow arbitration or the shop is responsible for your legal expenses if you have to action them for non performance of the contract. I would recommend a contract for any major automotive work. The only other advice I can give you is my observation that alcoholics make the best painters. You do not want one just out of rehab or on the wagon. Alcoholics have an amazing steady hand and a mulish ability to put up with the monotony of bodywork and painting. Some that have been in the business for a long time are somewhat addled due to inhalation of volatile chemicals over prolonged periods. Good luck.

Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:03 pm

Ahwahnee wrote: bosco53 wrote:

It may be a trick of the light but it appears to me that several seams are missing. If so, you will want to explore below the surface. Good luck.

For reference, this photo shows the factory seams:

The seams are there. It's a super low resolution pic. I've already been inside and out of it. Driven it. Shined light where the sun doesn't shine. I'm not denying the amount of work to do. But it's a solid foundation I can work with. I'm not an experienced body guy. But I am very experienced with brining rigs from their potential graves back to the limelight. It's fun, challenging and rewarding.

Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:07 pm

greebly wrote: Most of the shops I spoke to or visited did not want to hear restoration. It s a dirty word to them, literally and figuratively. The paradigm with modern auto body shops is plastic replacement and panel replacement. If they are even willing to do it they do not like someone else doing the bodywork, and will estimate higher because if someone else did it, it was done wrong. You can save by pulling windows, handles, lenses and wipers. Most are happy to let you do grunt work. INSIST ON A CONTRACT!!! Make sure what you are expecting is spelled out in the contract, make sure there is a specified time limit to do the work and the exact price is spelled out. Make sure the warranty is spelled out clearly. You can download a contract from a Google search and tweak it. I would add a clause to allow arbitration or the shop is responsible for your legal expenses if you have to action them for non performance of the contract. I would recommend a contract for any major automotive work. The only other advice I can give you is my observation that alcoholics make the best painters. You do not want one just out of rehab or on the wagon. Alcoholics have an amazing steady hand and a mulish ability to put up with the monotony of bodywork and painting. Some that have been in the business for a long time are somewhat addled due to inhalation of volatile chemicals over prolonged periods. Good luck.

hiring a drunk to paint a car is stupid, I don't want a drunk anywhere near my car with a paint gun. drunks are also susceptible to tremors, so much for a steady hand. I have had the unfortunate experience dealing with a drunk painter as did a friend of mine, crappy work, slow work, excuses and horrible people skills, argumentative.
Find a professional sober painter for better results.
Stay area from the drunk painters.

Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:03 pm

bluebus86 wrote: hiring a drunk to paint a car is stupid
...
bluebus86 wrote:
I have had the unfortunate experience dealing with a drunk painter as did a friend of mine.
Hahaha woosh...

Quote: crappy work, slow work, excuses and horrible people skills
You are describing most of the profession here. Sounds like someone that posts frequently here . :-) There is a fine line between drunk and alcoholic. They function pretty well when they have to. Say with a contract forcing them to drink just enough to get er done. You were either not paying enough to motivate your guy or just handed him some deposit (I mean drinking money) without any legal recourse. I prefer construction contractors to have massive cocaine habits. They have to work furiously to pay for the monkey. The worst project I ever had was when a contractor I had hired disappeared for a couple of weeks. His family just had to do an intervention and he did rehab. He was close to worthless when he got out. Different skill set though, you do not want a autobody guy who is on cocaine.

Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:19 pm

Veering WAY off topic here to drunk and high painters and carpenters......

Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:24 pm

I knew many bodymen, painters who drank.
No sloppy drunks, just drinkers.
I think it comes with the profession.

Couple of items that could make your life easier, more difficult , if you are doing all the grunt work.

Contact a couple of mobile media blasters (now these guys Do drink)
and get a price on having the entire van cleaned up down to bare metal.
You just saved yourself a couple of weeks of sanding.
Be ready with the metal prep when he's done.
Now you'll be able to see exactly what you are in for.
It could be good, it could be a nightmare.

Do not give the shop a contract to sign.
Never fly, you'll put a fly in the ointment from the get go.
You are going there to get thr eork done, if they are a good shop, you'll be signing a work order, not the other way around.

Don't use the word "restored" unless you are able to be spending a sky's the limit bill.

Tell them to yank the glass, repair what needs to be repaired, & painted.

A deposit in any good shop is an option, if this is what you want to do.

You can tell them what you want it refinished in, acid etch primer, epoxy, urethane primers.

All kinds of options for you as the customer.

Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:09 pm

greebly wrote: Quote:
I have had the unfortunate experience dealing with a drunk painter as did a friend of mine.
You should of had an ironclad contract as noted above.

Quote: crappy work, slow work, excuses and horrible people skills
You are describing most of the profession here. Sounds very familiar. :-) There is a fine line between drunk and alcoholic. They function pretty well when they have to. Say with a contract forcing them to drink just enough to get er done. You were either not paying enough to motivate your guy or just handed him some deposit (I mean drinking money) without any legal recourse. I prefer construction contractors to have massive cocaine habits. They have to work furiously to pay for the monkey. The worst project I ever had was when a contractor I had hired disappeared for a couple of weeks. His family just had to do an intervention and he did rehab. He was close to worthless when he got out. Different skill set though, you do not want a autobody guy who is on cocaine.

what good is a contract when the sob drunk goes out of bussiness and skips town?

So you now say most of tbe profession does crappy work, slow work, excuses and have horrible people skills, except of course for the drunk ones. I think your a bit too drunk or maybe drugged out right now.

the best paint jobs I have had done were by professional sober people.

Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:31 pm

I would bet most of you are drunk right now. Which is fine by me. But can we please stop the ridiculous post count boosting shenanigans and stick to helpful, thoughtful replies to the topic at hand? Thanks!! It should be fun to reference this thread when I post the finished product. Enjoy your beer! :popcorn:

Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:01 pm

bosco53 wrote: ... please stop the ridiculous post count boosting shenanigans and stick to helpful, thoughtful replies to the topic at hand? :popcorn:

It's always interesting to see an OP trying to control a thread they put out on the Internet. It seems that once it's out there the thread is going to go where it wants to.

greebly wrote: INSIST ON A CONTRACT!!! You can download a contract from a Google search and tweak it. I would add a clause to allow arbitration or the shop is responsible for your legal expenses if you have to action them for non performance of the contract.

Terry Kay wrote:
Do not give the shop a contract to sign.
Never fly, you'll put a fly in the ointment from the get go.
, if they are a good shop, you'll be signing a work order, not the other way around.

Looks like we got the reasonable TK today. :D

Googling "contract" and marching into a shop and insisting they sign it is ridiculous. Any shop owned by a professional that I'd care to have work on my van has got a line of customers who trust his work waiting out the door. Such a professional doesn't deal with goofballs walking in and making unreasonable demands.

Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:15 pm

I'm always reasonable,
depends on who's doing the reading.

There would be no other way to make a shop owner really grumpy when his service writer appears with some sort of written orders from a customer out in the office .
This right here would without a doubt get anybody a finger pointed right at the exit sign.

However, getting a verbal agreed ETA would be normal, and won't get you the boot.

Ya gotta use your head on a deal like this.

The TV shows that show you a vehicle being restored in a weeks time is for the dreamers watching the program.
It's entertainment, nothing more.
Like, you gotta be kidding me.

Be reasonable.