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Sun May 14, 2017 5:45 am

I did my first tune up yesterday on my 74 super all went good until it came to the 009 and the wires. I found the the number 1 plug is at about the 10 o'clock position instead of the 4 o'clock and lined up with the notch when #1 is at TDC. I removed the distributor to rotate the rotor 180 them found it only goes in one way. I did the static timing with the a test light now it starts but takes a while to fire up. Will the #1 plug being on the # 3 lobe throw off the timing. Can I take off the alignment part off of the end of the 009 and rotate it 180 to get the rotor correct or does it only go on one way as well. It has a H30/31PICT carb and the idle is some what erratic floats between 850-1000 RPM. I am not sure if it is the carb adjustment or the mechanical advance of the 009, is there a rebuild kit for the 009. I will rebuild the carb next weekend.

Sun May 14, 2017 5:52 am

It all depends which 009 and how the distributor drive gear is oriented in the case. You need to find tdc, regardless of the way the distributor is positioned.

Sun May 14, 2017 7:01 am

It is a 0 231 178 009 JF 4 087 are the markings on the distributor. What about the #3 lobe has a different configuration than the other 3 to retard the timing to keep cylinder #3 running cooler, will this not affect the over all timing if I am using to time the ignition. Either the drive gear is in wrong or the base of the distributor is on wrong. It would be easier to change the bottom of the distributor that the drive gear as I have read about the drive gear falling into the abyss of the crankcase if the gear is removed.

Sun May 14, 2017 7:14 am

If number 1 is at 10 o clock then its one of two things. The distributor may be 180 out or the bottom of the 009 distributor is 180 out. An easy fix would be to remove the gear on the bottom of the 009 and flip it around. Problem solved.

Sun May 14, 2017 7:27 am

The gear on the bottom how do you go about flipping it around?

Sun May 14, 2017 7:29 am

Since an 009 has no vacuum can the housing can be rotated to any position you like to run it. No need to move any pthing around.

Sun May 14, 2017 7:40 am

gt1953 wrote: If number 1 is at 10 o clock then its one of two things. The distributor may be 180 out or the bottom of the 009 distributor is 180 out. An easy fix would be to remove the gear on the bottom of the 009 and flip it around. Problem solved.

Q-Dog wrote: Since an 009 has no vacuum can the housing can be rotated to any position you like to run it. No need to move anything around.

Either of the above two are the solution.

You can look at the valves/rocker arms for #1 position to determine whether the pulley is at #1 TDC or #3 TDC when lined up with the notch. Do NOT use a pencil down the spark plug hole for that !!!

To flip the distributor gear, should be able to drive out locating pin. But it's your VW, why not do second choice and just use paint pen to label 1, 2, 3, 4 on your distributor cap? If yours was a restoration, you wouldn't be using 009 !!!

Sun May 14, 2017 8:11 am

allenw wrote: It is a 0 231 178 009 JF 4 087 are the markings on the distributor. What about the #3 lobe has a different configuration than the other 3 to retard the timing to keep cylinder #3 running cooler, will this not affect the over all timing if I am using to time the ignition. Either the drive gear is in wrong or the base of the distributor is on wrong. It would be easier to change the bottom of the distributor that the drive gear as I have read about the drive gear falling into the abyss of the crankcase if the gear is removed.

If the 009 even has the retarded timing for the #3 cylinder (which is probably unlikely to begin with), as long as the drive gear on the bottom of the distributor itself is on correctly, and you rotate the distributor body so that the notch is lined up with the rotor at the #1 position, you should still get the correct retarded timing on #3. A quick test to see if you have the retarded timing would be to move the timing light pickup to the #3 plug wire and see if the timing is the same as the #1.

Timing on an 009 needs to be set with a timing light, the static timing is just to get it close enough for the engine to run. Basic procedure is to set the timing at around 28 to 30 degrees with full mechanical advance, somewhere around 3000rpm, and then let the idle timing fall where it will. You can make a note of the idle timing so you know how much advance the distributor actually has (009s vary wildly between brands), and then use that as a reference for future static timing.

Sun May 14, 2017 8:45 am

Use a degree wheel and tachometer.
plot timing and curve for each cylinder throughout RPM range
compare each cylinder to graphs and determine if #3 lobe is specific
Adjust or reinstall accordingly.

Or do it on a dist tester and set at max advance, or static time to a preferred point, or time by ear, or what they said.

Or maybe there's an app for graphing automotive oscilloscope

Sun May 14, 2017 8:52 am

As stated above, there is not a huge issue exactly where #1 points. I run a 009 myself with your exact carb on a '70 sp 1641. What I did was print a degree wheel thats on here somewhere and use it on the crank pulley. The degree wheel prints out on paper, cuts into a circle about the same size as your pulley and is easy tape on.
Then you have to find TDC on #1. The key way on the crank points to 9:00 on both #1 and #3 cylinder so you have to have the valve cover off and watch the valves close to verify.
Then mark 29 degrees on the crank pulley with a paint pen or some finger nail polish or something. Take this opportunity to mark where the rotor is pointing on the distributor housing as well.
Now you know where #1 is.
Once you get everything buttoned back up, fire up that engine and get your test light fired up. Crank the engine up to 3k rpm or until the mark you made on the crank pulley quits advancing.
You time the engine by the split in the case. Make sure your points and condenser are in good shape too.
My carb, I have the same one as you, is a finicky beast. That adjustment advice is best left to others.
Good luck and I hope this helped 8)

Sun May 14, 2017 11:03 am

({The gear on the bottom how do you go about flipping it around?})

It is not that difficult to do. Notice the wire would spring on around the gear or cog. Remove the spring and you will see a pin. Drive that pin out using a hammer and suitable center punch or ? Remove gear turn it 180 and reinstall the pin and spring. Now should line up correctly.

Sun May 14, 2017 3:39 pm

Prior to '71 when VW added the "Doghouse" fan shroud they kept the #3 cylinder cooler by retarding the timing on that ONE cylinder. See the note at the top of this page from an earlier Bentley manual:

From a thread that talked about the retarded #3 timing:
Glenn wrote: ... I've seen 1st hand an 009 with a 3* retard on #3. It was a Bosch German unit. I've also tested a few early 70's units with the retard.

It's no myth...
So, if you have a 009 distributor from before '71 it may have a retarded #3 cylinder. If it was made after '71 then each cylinder is exactly 90-deg apart (180deg apart at the crank).

Test:
Connect a test lamp between the ignition coil #1 (-) terminal and ground. Slowly rotate the crank CW with the ignition ON. When the test lamp turns from OFF to ON make a pencil mark on the crank pulley. This represents the point where one cylinder fires its spark plug. Try to be as precise as possible. Rotate the crank 180-deg and make another mark when the next cylinder fires (light OFF to ON). Rotate thru two full rotations (720deg) and note if any cylinder fires later that the others. If one cylinder fires later (around 3 or 4deg) then it is the retarded #3 and you need to make sure the #3 plug wire is connected at this position on the distributor AND that this position will deliver a spark to #3 when it is at the end of its compression stroke. This position should be opposite the #1 cylinder notch on the distributor body.

It is more likely your have a more modern 009 which fires each cylinder exactly 180 crank deg apart from each other. In which case, it is only important that the spark reach the correct cylinder at the end of that cylinder's compression stroke.

How to fix your distributor:
1) Determine if the problem is with your distributor or drive gear.
Rotate the engine (with distributor installed) until the rotor is pointed to #1 spark plug wire on the cap. Remove the #1/#2 valve cover and check that the #1 cylinder valves do not move when you rock the crank pulley back and forth (evidence that engine is at #1 TDC). If they valves move, rotate the crank 360-deg and check again.

Remove the distributor and look down the hole in the case. You should see this:

If the top of the distributor drive gear looks like the above while your engine is at #1 TDC then your gear is installed properly and it is your distributor that needs to be corrected. Follow step #3.
If the distributor drive gear does NOT look like the above, follow step #2.

2) Re-orient the distributor drive gear.
If you have a mechanical fuel pump, remove it, the pump push rod and the pedestal it rests on. Remove the spring from the center of the drive gear. Use a tool or properly sized wooden dowel to pull up on the drive gear enough to clear the crank and rotate it. When you drop it back down it will rotate 30-deg CW as it seats into position.

3) Rotate the cog at the bottom of the distributor.
Look at the bottom of your distributor. You will see the drive cog is held in with a pin. The pin is held in by a coil spring wrapped around the groove:

Remove the coiled spring and drive the pin out with a punch. Slide the "cog" at the end of the shaft off and rotate 180-deg. Reinstall the cog, pin and the spring.

Before you reinstall the distributor, orient the cog so it will mate with the top of the drive gear (which is in the correct position for #1 TDC) and note where the rotor is pointing. Without moving the rotor, rotate the body of the distributor until the #1 notch on the rim lines up with the tip of the rotor. This makes sure the #1 lobe on the distributor shaft cam is opening the points for #1 cylinder. The retarded #3 lobe (if you have a retarded cylinder) is the opposite lobe from #1.
If the distributor drive gear and the cog at the bottom of the distributor are installed correctly, then the 009 distributor rotor will be pointing to around 4 or 5-o'clock as seen from the rear of the car.
If needed, set the point gap/dwell.
Static time the distributor to 7BTDC just to get the engine started.
Remove all the plug wires from the distributor cap.
Install the distributor cap (it only goes on one way).
Re-install the #1 plug wire over the tip of the rotor. Reinstall the remaining plug wires in the CW order 1-4-3-2.
Start the engine and use a strobe timing light to accurately set the timing correctly for a 009 distributor (max timing advance at 3500-3800rpm).

Mon May 15, 2017 4:59 pm

Does this mean anytbing?

http://www.vw-resource.com/009_dizzy.html

Quote: Timing the 009 Distributor

Note: The 009 distributors usually have the timing 90 degrees out compared to vacuum distributors. But the main thing is to set it so it has all the wires going to the right cylinders.

Mon May 15, 2017 5:49 pm

Buying a better distributor would just be a plus for both you and your car.

You would be hard pressed to find a worse distributor.

Mon May 15, 2017 6:23 pm

I will update everyone when I get the ignition switch or replacement steering column installed. While doing all the testing the + coil wire got hot and shorted against the steering column taking out the ignition switch. Lucky I just bought an entire steering column from a restored wrecked Bug. I am thinking about putting in a test station the has a + and - right from the battery going into the engine compartment.

I will also update everyone on the suggested testing to see if in fact the #3 lobe is really retarded or just the owner. I could supply a graph on the testing if you like, as I have no idea what the PO's have done or what part they replaced. If the wiring is any indication of what is to come It will be a long haul to get it to a reliable daily driver. The only good thing is there is not alot of rust.

Mon May 15, 2017 6:48 pm

I was under the impression that the timing retard of #3 was done with modifying the cap. Are there doghouse and non doghouse caps?

Mon May 15, 2017 6:50 pm

Randy in Maine wrote: Buying a better distributor would just be a plus for both you and your car.

You would be hard pressed to find a worse distributor.

Country of origin should be stamped on the bottom of the distributor.

German 009 better than South American 009, and both better than Chinese 009 from what I read.

I run two vintage German 009s in my two VWs.

Mon May 15, 2017 6:58 pm

I had a 205t with a stuck advance mechanism when I first bought my car. Ran like crap and I didn't know much at all about these cars 11 years ago when I bought my car. Mechanic pulled it out and put a 009 in. Ran way better. Eventually I got sick of the flat spot. Its terribly annoying. I had a great guy Jay Salser rebuild me a 205t. It really changes the way you feel about the car.

Fri May 19, 2017 12:12 am

theKbStockpiler wrote: I was under the impression that the timing retard of #3 was done with modifying the cap. Are there doghouse and non doghouse caps?
That wouldn't do it. Even if you move the post that the spark plug wires plug into the cap, it won't change WHEN the spark happens. It just makes it farther for the spark to jump.
Think about it this way... as the timing is advanced the spark is delivered earlier in the rotation of the distributor. If the tip of the rotor was a pinpoint (some rotors are made up of two small wires) and it was aligned with the post that connects to the spark plug at idle. As the spark advances the tip would not have yet reached the post when the spark fires. To compensate for this the rotor will rotate within the distributor housing. But you can see that the spark will fire when the points open and the post on the distributor cap is a static position, so even if it was shifted a few degrees it would not control when the spark fired.

Also, the same distributor cap is used for the 009, which (prior to '71) had a retarded #3, and the later SVDA, DVDA and 009 distributors which did NOT have the retarded #3. The only thing that would work is a cam lobe that is not 90-deg from the others. Which is why for these older distributors it IS important to line up the notch with the rotor when the engine & rotor are at #1 TDC. For the later models, you can run the distributor incorrectly indexed and it won't make a difference.

Wed May 31, 2017 5:10 pm

So I took the dizzy out to take to work and push the pin out to move the bottom 180 and noticed there was a lot of slop in the bottom end drive. Either the drive gear is worn or the shaft, I can see at least 1/16 to 1/8 inch movement after I took the spring off when the drive is pushed to one side. Is this normal or should I just get another 009. The timing is all over the place when trying to get the correct timing, even at 3500 RPM.