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djway3474 Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:45 pm

Hello Fellow Air Cooled Junkies,
I just picked up a 1963 model 313, 1500S Notchback with sunroof according to the birth certificate. Other M codes "could not be identified." Car originally was delivered to Hong Kong.
It is all apart in boxes, body off pan etcetera. I have never owned a type 3 or even ridden in one before so I am now in my research phase.
Missing a few things such as the rear license plate housing, passenger pop out window assembly, door handles and a few other items. It seems to be a mishmash of parts for the running gear. The front beam has 4 lug disc and a 4 lug rear straight axle. The push button assembly is all there.
Here is the big kicker that I need help with. I see no evidence of an accident but the roof has been re clipped. My best guess is the sun roof was all rusted out. The drain holes are there in the lower body. I would like to put a sun roof back in the car. How specific year wise do I need to be when looking for the entire sunroof assembly? I have seen entire later square backs for a decent price but they are later on and I really don't have the room to cut one up so I am hoping to find a donor roof section. Judging by the parts I now have I am not thinking a stock restoration but instead a nice highway cruiser. Any help with positive suggestions and what can be done would be greatly appreciated.
I am sure I will have many more questions over time.
Thanks DJ
Here is a photo of the last project I am just completing.


Erik G Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:54 pm

pics

first off there are no 1963 1500S cars. Maybe built after Aug 1st, but those are 1964 cars

there are different years of sunroofs, but it's just the cable guides that are different. size and shape and mechanical are mostly the same.

and pics are needed to see what you have

welcome

djway3474 Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:44 pm

Erik G wrote: pics

first off there are no 1963 1500S cars. Maybe built after Aug 1st, but those are 1964 cars

there are different years of sunroofs, but it's just the cable guides that are different. size and shape and mechanical are mostly the same.

and pics are needed to see what you have

welcome
The roof is just a solid roof and looks to be a pretty clean install job. Ultra busy right now trying to find spots for all the boxes and a good storage spot for the body bits. I will get picts of the body up soon.
As for the S thing I am just saying what is on the birth certificate. Maybe they just write 1500/1500s on all of them. The sunroof was included in the model description and not an M code. I have heard on M codes for the Karmann Ghias that they included certain items on all birth certs for certain years even though that car never had those parts, so I am guessing it is not an exact science. If it is not that saves me some money on finding the license plate light chrome :D .
Thanks for the info on the sun roofs. The hunt begins :)

Erik G Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:18 pm

nope, they only write the S on the S cars

Lots of differences between the 63 and 64. Side molding or not, side marker above the body line or on it, bigger engine bay on the 64 for dual carbs, different brakes both front and rear, just to name a few. just post pics before you start buying stuff so we can tell you what you actually have, so you don't waste any time / money

ALLWAGONS Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:22 pm

Cool! any pics? there weer no S models built before Aug 1963. After Chassis number 0 238 748, they are 1964 models. ISP West is your best bet for type 3 parts and accessories. Where in So Cal are you? I have a '65 sunroof squareback and a little bit of knowledge on sunroof cars. What are your plans with this car? there are many cars out in the desert that you can get for cheap to use for parts. Troll the samba for a sunroof clip. and unfortunately NOT all parts interchange.

Martin
allwagons

djway3474 Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:25 pm

Here is the birth certificate. I covered the named of the guy I bought it from because I have no idea if he would mind.
I will get pictures of the body when I can get everything uncovered.

Erik G Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:03 pm

sweet! thats really a 63 sunroof car. It's not an S, thats weird because my 63 they did not put the S on the zertifikat

If you need help finding parts, ask. we can usually point you to the right place. ISP west just cleared out a huge junkyard of cars and parts - We also saw them do a resto and add a sunroof top. I'd ask them about sunroof clips - and most type 3 parts...

djway3474 Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:42 pm

After years of reading about VW and how they did things there are few absolutes you can say about them. Some of the old VW bus bodies that sat for years before use, when they pulled a engine out of the warehouse and on and on. Ever try to restore a 55 bug, you could pull all your hair out with that restoration? It did not seem to get better until the late 60's early 70's. I am not doing a full stock restoration ever again after the low light Ghia. I must say though parts are MUCH easier to locate for this car.
Is there a post of the ISP install of a sunroof?

ALLWAGONS Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:48 pm

I think the HK delivery is awesome. never seen an ACVW in Hong Kong

Clatter Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:46 pm

I watched your fine Ghia build over on that forum.
Nice work.

djway3474 wrote: I must say though parts are MUCH easier to locate for this car.


Better be knocking when you say that.. :wink:

There are cheap China knock-off out there,
but for some things,
A genuine OG part in good shape can be tricky indeed.


There's plenty of homework to be done here in the type 3 world for sure,
And you can go down the rabbit hole if you really care what's right or not.

There are actually very few of these that are done _right_..


Really looking forward to seeing this one play out after watching your Ghia build.

Aaron M265 Tue Jul 04, 2017 3:00 am

I find it hard to believe the reference to the wheel paint is velvet green at that date.

Do you have any of the original wheels to verify this as being correct?

Forgive me if I am off base with this query but it wouldnt be the first time I am wrong or the VW documentation is wrong.

notchboy Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:47 am

M 442? Velvet Green rims 8) :lol:

Erik G Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:15 am

yeah I don't see a date they started painting the wheels velvet



EverettB Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:26 am

Aaron M265 wrote: I find it hard to believe the reference to the wheel paint is velvet green at that date.

What should it be? The paint listing on this site has it listed as Velvet Green, which I entered from a Type 3 workshop book, if I remember right.

I'm sure it was a post-1963 parts book though.

Bobnotch Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:16 am

Any pics yet? We love pics.

ALLWAGONS Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:20 pm

Aaron M265 wrote: I find it hard to believe the reference to the wheel paint is velvet green at that date.

Do you have any of the original wheels to verify this as being correct?

Forgive me if I am off base with this query but it wouldnt be the first time I am wrong or the VW documentation is wrong.

Manual says so.....

Rome Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:21 pm

In the BC, 45 PS equates to 54 hp. PS is the abbreviation for the German phrase horse power, Pferdestaerke. This would be the output of the 1500 engine with single carb and 7.7:1 compression ratio. Definitely a non-S engine. S 1500s had 8.5:1 CR and an SAE rating of 66 hp. As mentioned before, the entire engine compartment is wider on an S to enable sufficient room for the dual carbs and the full-width air cleaner.

Good luck with your Notch revival.

djway3474 Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:35 am

Rome wrote: In the BC, 45 PS equates to 54 hp. PS is the abbreviation for the German phrase horse power, Pferdestaerke. This would be the output of the 1500 engine with single carb and 7.7:1 compression ratio. Definitely a non-S engine. S 1500s had 8.5:1 CR and an SAE rating of 66 hp. As mentioned before, the entire engine compartment is wider on an S to enable sufficient room for the dual carbs and the full-width air cleaner.

Good luck with your Notch revival.

Thank you for clearing it up for me. Not an S
Thanks to all for the information.
Thanks Clatter for the kind words on the Ghia. She is a beauty. I am going to use the Fuchs I bought for the Ghia on this car. The Ghia looks sooooooo much better with whitewalls. I will design and sew an interior to match whatever color I decide to go with. Hopefully I will find a sun roof and graft that back in. Probably around 2000cc mild motor and gear it for top open cruising. I have an extra 914 motor as well as a Dual Port type 3 so decisions, decisions. I will replace the clock with a tach. Does anyone make a decal for converting a clock to tach. The conversion I did on the Ghia came out beautiful. More than likely it will have AC. This will be a long term project just as the Ghia was. I have others in line first like my daily driver to be. That gives me time to collect all the missing parts.
ISP is only about an hour drive so I will drive the Hippy Bus down when it is time and load up. I am very close to WolfsburgWest but I don't see a lot of crossover yet.
So far I know I need door handles, passenger pop out window, a clock or a tach, front windshield, any interior chrome bits these came with, a few push button covers, the sunroof assembly, front/rear window chrome. I am considering going with the stainless bumpers, will see what the chromer says plus I need the over riders. Front and rear window trim. Heat and exhaust for whatever motor I decide on.
How do radios mount in these T3's?
I have a question on the rear motor hanger for these early cars. It does not look like it would take much weight. Do they really do that much?
The journey begins

Rome Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:03 am

An original radio was of course DIN-spec, which used a bracket/housing that mounted under the center of the dash. The top of the bracket/housing usually fit into the upward indent at the dash center bottom edge. Here's one which is a complete housing, not just a simple front bracket for the faceplate:

Close-up of bracket fitment at dash:


Other types as well as the finished installation can be seen here:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_search.php...t_dir=DESC

Bobnotch Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:28 am

djway3474 wrote: Rome wrote: In the BC, 45 PS equates to 54 hp. PS is the abbreviation for the German phrase horse power, Pferdestaerke. This would be the output of the 1500 engine with single carb and 7.7:1 compression ratio. Definitely a non-S engine. S 1500s had 8.5:1 CR and an SAE rating of 66 hp. As mentioned before, the entire engine compartment is wider on an S to enable sufficient room for the dual carbs and the full-width air cleaner.

Good luck with your Notch revival.

Thank you for clearing it up for me. Not an S
Thanks to all for the information.
Thanks Clatter for the kind words on the Ghia. She is a beauty. I am going to use the Fuchs I bought for the Ghia on this car. The Ghia looks sooooooo much better with whitewalls. I will design and sew an interior to match whatever color I decide to go with. Hopefully I will find a sun roof and graft that back in. Probably around 2000cc mild motor and gear it for top open cruising. I have an extra 914 motor as well as a Dual Port type 3 so decisions, decisions. I will replace the clock with a tach. Does anyone make a decal for converting a clock to tach. The conversion I did on the Ghia came out beautiful. More than likely it will have AC. This will be a long term project just as the Ghia was. I have others in line first like my daily driver to be. That gives me time to collect all the missing parts.
ISP is only about an hour drive so I will drive the Hippy Bus down when it is time and load up. I am very close to WolfsburgWest but I don't see a lot of crossover yet.
So far I know I need door handles, passenger pop out window, a clock or a tach, front windshield, any interior chrome bits these came with, a few push button covers, the sunroof assembly, front/rear window chrome. I am considering going with the stainless bumpers, will see what the chromer says plus I need the over riders. Front and rear window trim. Heat and exhaust for whatever motor I decide on.
How do radios mount in these T3's?
I have a question on the rear motor hanger for these early cars. It does not look like it would take much weight. Do they really do that much?
The journey begins

It sounds like you'll be searching the classifieds for quite a bit of stuff. You could try contacting Joel (Boo-Koo-Z) up in Washington for some parts as well.
Yes, WW doesn't have a lot of crossover parts, but then they don't list any T-3 parts. You just have to know which ones crossover.

ISP might have some of the bits and pieces you need too (they offer a tach too), but I don't think anyone is reproducing the correct early (61-63) trim and seals for the front and rear glass. That might be your hardest parts to find.

I too have been seriously looking at going with the stainless bumpers for my 65 Notch. Living in a damp climate is hard on the chrome, and today's chrome isn't as good as the original stuff. :(

As for the rear hanger mount, it's actually more of a rear engine snubber than anything else. Ideally you want a good rubber donut in it, and 7 shims. It's mainly there to preload the rear suspension/engine on take off from a standing start to keep vibrations to a minimum. It's not really an engine "hanger" per say. Meaning you could actually run the car without it.

I hope this helps.

P.S. Putting in a T-4 engine (914) will require some mods that you might not be ready to deal with. Some of it is clearancing the trans bellhousing for the flywheel, doing a pilot bearing conversion, getting Nate's template for building a conversion cooling boot mount, and adding some sort of rear engine hanger support bar/bracketry, and of course figuring out your exhaust and heat supply (or if you're going to want heat). It will however make it easier to install and run an AC compressor. You'll also want to get the transaxle re-geared for the engine (or install a 5 speed). You might want to do a little searching on it before getting your feet wet. :wink:
Just a few random thoughts from someone who has done a T-4 into a T-3 conversion.



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