TheSamba.com :: View topic - What fuel hose SAE do you use , 30R7 or 30R9 ?

Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:10 pm

I have 30R7 on my 73 T-3 . It has something to with E-10 eating the fuel line from the inside out and permeation with is the ability of the fuel to get through the lining even on new hose at least that's my impression.

I took a good look at my lines today just to see if I could see any visible leaks under pressure and did not. None were hard or cracked .

Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:00 pm

blues90 wrote: I have 30R7 on my 73 T-3 . It has something to with E-10 eating the fuel line from the inside out and permeation with is the ability of the fuel to get through the lining even on new hose at least that's my impression.

I took a good look at my lines today just to see if I could see any visible leaks under pressure and did not. None were hard or cracked .

You really should be using the 30r9 minimum. The 30r7 is 37 times more permeable than 30r9.....which meets 30r13 specs.

30r7 is designed as low pressure line for fuel return lines. Its good to a maximum of 35 psi at 3/8" diameter and 50 psi for 1/2" diameter according to Gates.

Also both Goodyear and Gates make ethanol rated hoses. You need to choose by model number and not just rating as well. Gates is bery specific in that they have spe ific cuel injection rated hose for CLAMPED versus swaged lines. Ray

Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:36 pm

Hi. I have used both of those spec hoses on low psi carb'd engines and after a year the hose is getting less pliable.
So now I have just bought some of the Gates Barricade hose to verify an improvement. I'm using the 1/4" ID, pn 27313, $2.50/ft from O'Reilly's or Napa. You can look at this link for the specs and additional info:

http://www.gates.com/oreilly/PDFs/Fuel%20Systems.pdf
You can see the spec is SAE 30R 14. I bought a couple of feet of this hose from O'Reilly and Napa and they look different. The hose has a mfgr date on it and the O'Reilly hose was 2017 and the Napa hose was 2015.
I don't believe you need the 200psi hose. A drawback to this hose is it doesn't like tight radius'.

As far as cool hose clamps go, I have used those serated $.50 clamps for decades but decided to look for an improvement. The generic parts stores sell the china clamps. I have a very cool, local, source for Gem, made in Germany, clamp for $1 each. McMaster Carr lists some very cool looking clamps for about $1 to $2 ea, with a minimum 5 or 10 bag purchase.
Here is there link:

https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-hose-clamps/=191j0x3

Personally, I'd buy a couple of feet of hose you might wish to use and a couple of clamps you feel would work and try them out on one of your components. I say this as I have tried someone's FI hose clamp and the clamp bottomed out before the hose was tight enough.
There is a couple of ongoing threads regarding this very same subject on the Bay Bus section.
Hope this helps, Bill.

Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:14 pm

rockerarm wrote: Hi. I have used both of those spec hoses on low psi carb'd engines and after a year the hose is getting less pliable.
So now I have just bought some of the Gates Barricade hose to verify an improvement. I'm using the 1/4" ID, pn 27313, $2.50/ft from O'Reilly's or Napa. You can look at this link for the specs and additional info:

http://www.gates.com/oreilly/PDFs/Fuel%20Systems.pdf
You can see the spec is SAE 30R 14. I bought a couple of feet of this hose from O'Reilly and Napa and they look different. The hose has a mfgr date on it and the O'Reilly hose was 2017 and the Napa hose was 2015.
I don't believe you need the 200psi hose. A drawback to this hose is it doesn't like tight radius'.

As far as cool hose clamps go, I have used those serated $.50 clamps for decades but decided to look for an improvement. The generic parts stores sell the china clamps. I have a very cool, local, source for Gem, made in Germany, clamp for $1 each. McMaster Carr lists some very cool looking clamps for about $1 to $2 ea, with a minimum 5 or 10 bag purchase.
Here is there link:

https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-hose-clamps/=191j0x3

Personally, I'd buy a couple of feet of hose you might wish to use and a couple of clamps you feel would work and try them out on one of your components. I say this as I have tried someone's FI hose clamp and the clamp bottomed out before the hose was tight enough.
There is a couple of ongoing threads regarding this very same subject on the Bay Bus section.
Hope this helps, Bill.

STOP!...... :D .....this is one of the train of thoughts I try hard to stop.

Do you need a 200 psi fuel hose?.....yea....you do.

None of these hoses are rated at 200 psi constant use. That is NOT what the test spec is about.
200+ psi fuel hose is only tested at that level at a specific range of temperature.....with a middle of the road test fluid ....in a narrow range of temperature to see what it can withstand in an all combined worst conditions situation.

For fuel injected use.....you need the ability to withstand about 2X the working pressure.....when the hose is aged and worn. They actually test for that in both accelerated weathering....and in long term real world aging at both the Q-panel and,Atlas weathering farms and labs.

The ones that work over years of time, age, pressure and fuel soak......just also happen to be the ones that pass the momentary 200+psi pressure test. So....dont fool yourself into believing....."I dont need a 200 psi fuel hose" . Of course you do mot need that attribute. You need all the OTHER attributes they conveniently gloss over.

By the way....I am starting to see that the biggest failure point even for the 30r9 and 30r13/14 rated hoses......is beimg used in areas that are highly "unclean"....meaning lots of stray oils, grease and fuels.

On ALL of the Gates fuel injection line....except for the doubly jacketed 30r10 emerrsible hose......they speificqlly,state not to get fuel or oils on the outaide jacket. It attacks the hose
Ray

Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:14 pm

Pretty expensive hose. I'm no scientist by a long shot . So far I had no issues with the 30R7 hose not to say I won't . I'm more concerned about the hoses on the engine where a fire would be an issue. I have German FI hose on the engine yet to find info on it is next to impossible . It just states NBR/CR< 25/06/41. I was pretty expensive yet seems to be just FI hose of some sort.

Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:21 pm

raygreenwood wrote: On ALL of the Gates fuel injection line....except for the doubly jacketed 30r10 immersible hose......they specifically state not to get fuel or oils on the outside jacket. It attacks the hose
Ray

Sounds like a pretty effen stupid material choice for a FUEL line.

Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:40 pm

KTPhil wrote: raygreenwood wrote: On ALL of the Gates fuel injection line....except for the doubly jacketed 30r10 immersible hose......they specifically state not to get fuel or oils on the outside jacket. It attacks the hose
Ray

Sounds like a pretty effen stupid material choice for a FUEL line.

Not really. Its just very hard to make a fuel line that does EVERYTHING.

You want alcohol, diesel and bio-fuel resistance?......thats one type of elastomer.

You want pressure rating?....thats a different type of construction.

You want clamp ability versus swaged coupling?.....yet another construction type.

You want ozone and heat stability.....yet another elastomer layer type.

You want oil and grease resistance....with all of the above?.....its a totally different constriction and elastomer set combined

This is pretty common stuff. For example...EPDM is the best external heat, ozone and weathering resistance. Its what windshield seals are made of. However......it sucks with fuels and petroleum oil and hydrocarbons.

You want that....you need a fluoroelastomer like viton......which sucks with ozone and UV. You want ester based oil and alcohol resistance?......you need a chlorinated nitrile or neoprene....both of which suck for pressure and ozone.

They make hot condition, multi-fuel, ozone, heat and oil resistant fuel lines out of multiple plies with construction specific to the clamping system.

Sorry it sucks and its expensive....but with today's fuel issues......you get what you pay for.

I have not paid less than $4.50 per foot for quality fuel injection line since the mid 80s.

I'll be happy to post the gates specs in the am. Ray

Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:35 am

I've had R9 fail in less that 6months due to ethanol in fuel eating it away from inside(on two separate vehicles). I've swapped out for full on biofuel hose, forgotten the brand but basically same as used on brand new Mercedes in the factory. I wouldn't fit anything less.

Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:31 am

Chino_UK wrote: I've had R9 fail in less that 6months due to ethanol in fuel eating it away from inside(on two separate vehicles). I've swapped out for full on biofuel hose, forgotten the brand but basically same as used on brand new Mercedes in the factory. I wouldn't fit anything less.

Pretty much.....that and the fact that virtually all manufacturers use almost "0" rubber in fuel lines except for in high temp areas where flexibility is needed......like the linkage into the fuel rail from the hard line to the pump and fuel tank and from the exit from the fuel rail back to the tank.

And in those cases they also almost universally use factory swaged rubber/metal couplings ...which allows a different set of materials and construction than a hose thats going to use a clamp.

I would say from what I have seen....because of thr mix of fuel types and environmental factors that since about 2000 .....about 80% or more of all fuel lines on new cars are nylon tube with quick disconnects or barbs.....which have 0 issues with any fuels, ozone or UV.

Its also why I an working to move to nylon on my 412 when ai get it off the ground. Ray

Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:21 pm

just for reference this is what the OG braided hose looked like on the inside when we found the gas tank empty last spring(73 super). this is the only piece of braided line on the whole car under the tank (5 years old).
It looked normal until we poured a couple gallons into the tank and they came out the hose cracks. The fuel around here is an up to 10% ethanol blend.

I don't think i would have a problem running the gates barricade carburated hose on the EFI , the pump is only 30 psi, it's rated for 50 working pressure and the burst strength on the gates product should be no less than 3 times that.

Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:50 am

Here's what 6 month old R9 'ethanol resistant' stuff looks like here in the UK after running modern, ethanol enriched petrol, the same hose sold by a popular VW parts supplier here in the UK. It did this on both my Type 3 and wifes 1303s:

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k99/chino_uk/fas...g~original

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k99/chino_uk/fas...g~original

Just in case you think it's just the outer sheathing going, it was like this on the inside too, and was loose on all fittings where it had been eaten away, despite being fitted with corrected fuel hose clips (not jubilee's).

Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:20 am

Chino_UK wrote: Here's what 6 month old R9 'ethanol resistant' stuff looks like here in the UK after running modern, ethanol enriched petrol, the same hose sold by a popular VW parts supplier here in the UK. It did this on both my Type 3 and wifes 1303s:

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k99/chino_uk/fas...g~original

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k99/chino_uk/fas...g~original

Just in case you think it's just the outer sheathing going, it was like this on the inside too, and was loose on all fittings where it had been eaten away, despite being fitted with corrected fuel hose clips (not jubilee's).

Would be helpful if you uploaded to the Samba gallery - I have an adblocker and cannot see the photos.

Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:18 am

ataraxia wrote:

Would be helpful if you uploaded to the Samba gallery - I have an adblocker and cannot see the photos.

I've edited the post for you :)

Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:32 am

Thank you for posting these pictures.

It also goes along with a lot of ehat I hsve been stating about rubber parts in general.

Saying a rubber part meets a specification.....or is made of a specific rubber "type".....is not enough to guarantee it will not fail.
How a part or hose is made and formulated ......what exact chemicals it comes into contact with under what conditions can have huge effect.. .....meaning ....even if its made to a "spec"......you have the issue that modern gasoline is not just a mixture of two chemicals.....gasoline and alcohol.

Gasoline is NOT a single chemical. On average the MSDS sheet for "basic" unleaded gasoline shows between 12 and 18 chemicals.....all of them are nasty.

Gasoline blends are different everywhere and change seasonally. There is no way that just meeting or exceeding a specification will guarantee that modern fuel hose will work everywhere with every blend. And.....then you get into differences in brand and rubber formulation and construction.

It might be nice to know......do you know what brand the 30r9 you used is?

All of this just reinforces my decision to replace all of my lines with nylon. Ray

Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:17 am

Chino_UK wrote: ataraxia wrote:

Would be helpful if you uploaded to the Samba gallery - I have an adblocker and cannot see the photos.

I've edited the post for you :)

Thanks - I'm sure others will appreciate it as well! :D

Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:50 pm

Wiki I think you could use the gates carb fuel line since it at least seems better than the 30R7.

Ray how are you going to use modern Nylon fuel line , you can't clamp it and then you need to fit the proper fittings designed for this type of line.

It's pretty screwed up when there is no real way to tell what is in my fuel and what it does to lines.

I have seen gates hose and Parker hose and without contacting the manufacturer it's difficult to tell if you can use basic FI clamps.

One top of all this then you need to consider the steel tank and lines and what happens to them . doing a bit of searching through each sites endless specs even some of the high dollar Parker fuel hose states 5 year life span.

Not to say my line is great yet it's been on there for 7 years and I see no signs of cracking on the inside or outside I have been concerned being on there this long at some point one will spring a leak . The line I used on the engine was FI german hose and have a line open to attach the fuel pressure gauge plugged with a 5/16" bolt with the thread removed and the end tapered and inside the line is clean with no cracks . I'm not saying what I have is the best yet it seems to hold up even with the E-10 and I'm not suggesting it's what anyone else should buy or use. The ratings on this German line are not SAE they are what ever the NBR/CR< is .

In reality it seems they just do not want old cars like ours on the road.

Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:50 pm

Quote: "blues90"]Wiki I think you could use the gates carb fuel line since it at least seems better than the 30R7.

No...you cant. I just explained this...and somehow you guys dont seem to be getting what I said...so I will try again.

What you guys seem to be seeing:

30r9 is TESTED to 30r14 specs...meaning a burst point of 200+ psi

What you guys seem to think:
Well...I dont need an expensive fuel line that is good to 200 psi...so I will buy the cheaper stuff that is good to 50-100 psi...since I am only running 30 psi.

Uh...no.

The burst pressure is just that....it goes until the hose splits. Its a destructive test and is NO INDICATOR...of how the hose will work at CONSTANT PRESSURE...WITH HEAT...AND WITH AGE. Its a one time test on brand new line mainly checking for construction integrity.

Carb line may have a PEAK burst pressure of 100 plus psi....but its NOT DESIGNED for constant use for pressures from fuel injection....with age, and with heat.

Sorry good fuel line is expensive in the age of bad fuel.....but I will tell you now....if you cheap out and your car burns....I have "0" sympathy for your loss (as long as your and your family are OK).

Using carburetor line is stupid even on low pressure injection. The manufacturers both of hose and the car...tell you not to.....because carb line FAILS CATASTROPHICALLY time and again in LONG TERM TESTING.

Quote: Ray how are you going to use modern Nylon fuel line , you can't clamp it and then you need to fit the proper fittings designed for this type of line.

Simple.....you can buy fittings EVERYWHERE....thousands of different sizes and designs.
You can connect nylon hoses to existing metal lines by installing the flanged male end or the female end which are available with a steel compression fitting (good to 1250 psi) and nylon tube to bare steel or tube to tube with double female connectors.
You can also buy the tool to join them by installing barbs (too expensive for me)....or install the barbs onto nylon tubes with either male or female fittings in several other ways.

I have a method I have worked out that uses low heat (just like the tubing vendors use)....and I use thicker barbed fittings that have had the ribs knocked off the barbs with a thread die. Then you use a thread chaser to form...not cut...the inside of the tube....heat lightly internally with hot water and then simply screw the fitting into the tube with a socket and drill. Heat lightly on the outside with a heat gun to about 190-225 F then use a split block of wood shaped like the ribs of the barb to clamp it until cool.

I need to test a few more connections...but so far that holds 150 psi constant.

If you use a modern fuel pump of virtually any type....they make a full range of both male and female fittings with and without check valves that screw into both inlet and outlet of the pump that snap right onto nylon lines.

Shaping the lines is not that hard. I have made some test shapes. You take a hand router...and a piece of 1" thick MDO board. Mark out your curved line shape. Route a smooth trench about 1/2 deep and about 1/8" wider than the fuel line. Tape it down so it does not pop out of the trench.

Snap the line into the shaped groove. Make sure the line is cut about 2 feet longer than you need so you can trim to size later....nylon is dirt cheap....$25 feet is about $25-30.
Get a brass ball valve from home depot with a nylon female fitting on it. Put that on one end.
On the other end....get a good thermometer...a hot plate...a small pot and a skinny metal funnel. Heat anti-freeze to about 290F.....with the valve open on the other end of the tube...pour anti-freeze into the tube until it squirts out the valve. close the valve to keep the line full.

Use ice water to cool it down quick and when it comes out...it will be permanently shaped. I will do a "how to" later in the fall.

You can also just take a sheet of plywood. Cut up some tin cans and roll them out in strips to make "walls" that you can staple gun onto the board to for ma channel. Both work just as well.

Quote:
It's pretty screwed up when there is no real way to tell what is in my fuel and what it does to lines.

Yep...I agree. In reality...the best hose companies (gates, Parker and Goodyear) MAKE hoses that will work for what you need...but they are premium hose...and not often available at FLAPS. Which is why any more...if I am going to buy rubber fuel line...I will order it through a hose supply house...and specify by part number from their catalog.

You will need to specify....multi-fuel...high pressure for fuel injection....severe service oil and grease environment (which at least for Gates...is the 30r10)....and you need to specify that is hose for CLAMPING. Swaged hose stock...is made differently in the plies/layers.

Quote: I have seen gates hose and Parker hose and without contacting the manufacturer it's difficult to tell if you can use basic FI clamps.

One top of all this then you need to consider the steel tank and lines and what happens to them . doing a bit of searching through each sites endless specs even some of the high dollar Parker fuel hose states 5 year life span.

You know....that five year lifespan.....in perfect environment....thats not out of line. I know the environment and fuel conditions have gotten worse...because seeing cracking and failures in quality brands...in one year or less....is bad.

But...even in the late 80's into the early 90's before ethanol.....my type 3 and type 4 cars had to have all new lines about every 2.5 years MAXIMUM.

I always put that off to the fact that I lived in Oklahoma city, Dallas and Atlanta spanning that period....all had very high heat and pretty high humidity....and all had ozone issues....so it was just part of the deal.

Everyone around me with type 3 and 4 and buses with L-jet had the same issue and we just went with it. We always just used the German cloth covered fuel injection line...which would outlast most aftermarket Gates fuel injection line by a year plus....and that was mainly due the issues of oil, grease and water exposure.

You have to remember ...that a fuel injected american car....has very little hose exposed to the oil grease and heat like we do.

Quote: In reality it seems they just do not want old cars like ours on the road.

I think the biggest problem is that with all of the new fuels....bio diesel, diesel, ethanol E-10, E-85 etc.....the fuel line companies have started making a wider range of very specific lines....and most of us who are having issues....are just going to FLAPS and ordering "fuel injection" line......but not getting specific about whether is "clamp-able" line....or has oil resistant jacketing. Still others are just asking for a "30r9" or something that meets 30r13 or 30r14.....which both the clamp-able and non-clamp and non oil resistant type meet...but they are not the same.

If you clamp a non-clamp type line....even with EFI clamps....it crushes the plies on the inside. Only the very inner layer is fluoroelastomer. If it cracks the inner layer you get vapor or liquid traveling laterally through the plies. It eats the inner plies and the line starts getting gummy or cracking.

Ray

Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:34 pm

What's the point of adding all these chemicals in gas and who decided it was a good idea some politician ? If you don't have a cat converter and even if you have who knows what these chemicals once burned do since they claim it reduces HC and emissions reminds me way back when R12 was replaced by r134 I have not heard or read one thing about what 134 does to the ozone or what ever else it comes in contact with . Yes remove the lead but all this other crap is insanity.

What's next as far as fuel ? we don't know what's in it now or if you spent $1000 on fuel hose if it will hold up next fill up. I'm not about to try to go with modern nylon fuel line .

So far and call it shear luck that I may regret real soon I have never had a fuel line burst open even the 30R7 . it's not cracked or mushy or hard and the pSI is 50 rated. If that held up than certainly the Gates carb rated fuel hose that does not die with oil or these types of fuel has to be better than what I have now. They don't list a burst pressure only say not for FI cars and most run far higher than 30 PSI . They should list everything about their hose . I know you can clamp it even the Parker line can be clamped they sell the do not use worm clamps on their site for that hose. .. All it takes is one little burr on the end of a metal fuel line to ruin the inner lining so you are screwed if you do not check every small detail. I did last time and the tunnel lines both are just straight ends no nipple or flare so is the return to the tank. makes no sense if they had them on the injectors and pump and the metal pipes all around the engine why not all of them. What it's OK and fine and dandy to spill fuel and come to a stop if something under the car decides to blow off. Maybe one does and some one tosses a cig or cigar out the window under your car and the entire block goes up in flames.

It just burns me so the rant.

Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:50 pm

blues90 wrote: What's the point of adding all these chemicals in gas and who decided it was a good idea some politician ? If you don't have a cat converter and even if you have who knows what these chemicals once burned do since they claim it reduces HC and emissions reminds me way back when R12 was replaced by r134 I have not heard or read one thing about what 134 does to the ozone or what ever else it comes in contact with . Yes remove the lead but all this other crap is insanity.

What's next as far as fuel ? we don't know what's in it now or if you spent $1000 on fuel hose if it will hold up next fill up. I'm not about to try to go with modern nylon fuel line .

So far and call it shear luck that I may regret real soon I have never had a fuel line burst open even the 30R7 . it's not cracked or mushy or hard and the pSI is 50 rated. If that held up than certainly the Gates carb rated fuel hose that does not die with oil or these types of fuel has to be better than what I have now. They don't list a burst pressure only say not for FI cars and most run far higher than 30 PSI . They should list everything about their hose . I know you can clamp it even the Parker line can be clamped they sell the do not use worm clamps on their site for that hose. .. All it takes is one little burr on the end of a metal fuel line to ruin the inner lining so you are screwed if you do not check every small detail. I did last time and the tunnel lines both are just straight ends no nipple or flare so is the return to the tank. makes no sense if they had them on the injectors and pump and the metal pipes all around the engine why not all of them. What it's OK and fine and dandy to spill fuel and come to a stop if something under the car decides to blow off. Maybe one does and some one tosses a cig or cigar out the window under your car and the entire block goes up in flames.

It just burns me so the rant.

Gasoline has ALWAYS been a concoction of at least a dozen chemicals.....from day 1.

It got more complicated when they went to unleaded. They had to add things to have some of the same function as tetraethyl lead....until valve seats and valves caught up.

Then they went to alcohol in place of MTBE....and it changed the chemicals around a little more.

Then you have the rubber problem.
At one point in time....maybe 20 years ago.....who know exactly.....all high pressure line may have had higher outer covering oil resistance that is better than now.....but there are several chemicals that are used in synthetic rubber......that due to usage and manufacturing/refining issues during and right before the last recession.....like butadiene.....are ....or were....on short supply.....and prices have not come down yet.

So from the hose company point of view....it's too expensive to make hoses that are bulletproof to everything if they do not need to be. So they make very specific kinds.

Do not clamp fuel hose...with any kind of clamp....unless you know its designed to be clamped. Its not just an issue of worm drive versus fuel injection clamp. If the hose is designed for swaged couplings.....any clamp will do SOME damage to it. Ray

Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:54 am

The bulk of the reason to have ethanol in fuel is a shift to renewable energy and reducing greenhouse gases. Here's some info from both sides of the pond on it:

https://www.theaa.com/driving-advice/fuels-environment/biofuels

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=27&t=10